Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

@Coronawireless

All victims can do no wrong! Ever!

What wrong did this TEACHER do?

Jesus fucking christ, do you have any idea how offensive this is?

'I think we challenge certain elements of free speech in the same way that Jews do.'

You are still not getting it.

Jewish people might protest against the cartoons and offensive comments but they are not protesting against free speech.

Some posters seem to think that there is one true 'positive free speech' which is essentially the Quaran. Ultimately that's fundamentalism, however gently they might express it.

Yes, exactly.

It is weird how there seems to be this refusal to admit that this is what they're arguing for, though. It's as if they know how incredibly illiberal and wrong it is, but they just want that anyway.

Some Jewish people have been offended by Charlie Hebdo, but they haven't beheaded anyone.

There is brutal retaliation from extremists - not Muslims. Yet Muslims suffer the consequences of said retaliation within society.

There is then free speech made as a consequence of the actions of said extremist , where Islam is depicted as a backwards religion with evil followers - once again Muslims suffer the consequences of said free speech caused by extremists within society.

Jewish people might protest against the cartoons and offensive comments but they are not protesting against free speech

Muslim people protest against cartoons and offensive comments too, not against freedom of speech. I don’t think I’m saying what you want to hear.

I am personally amazed as a feminist how the left have embraced and defended Islam and the people who push it on to others. From the parents threatening the headteacher for a very mild version of 'some people are gay' at that school in Birmingham to the live and let live of the incredibly misogynistic customs and behaviour some choose to display and now this.

For fucks sake these people think western liberals and their silly soft ideals are scum. The women are unclean whores (good enough to shag if young and vulnerable though). They hate our dogs and our pubs and our gay people and our equality. What part of this religion should be encouraged?

I know a few Muslims and meet them most days and most of the people I interact with are perfectly pleasant. My lovely neighbour is Muslim. But let's never never forget there are many factions and many beliefs and the kind of batshit person that thinks it's ok to behead someone for 'disrespecting' their religion is no better than a gang member. Ffs I don't owe these people respect any more than I do anyone else.

I'm sick of the third world deciding they want the riches of the west but they want the people and beliefs gone.

Some Jewish people have been offended by Charlie Hebdo, but they haven't beheaded anyone

There are some who claim to be Jewish that have killed people in the name of religion and power, I don’t think all Jewish people or their religion are responsible for the actions of these individuals.

If anyone wants an example of an islamophobic post I think MarriedtoDaveGrohl has kindly produced an excellent example.

You’re being pretty aggressive. I am just saying what I think. Exercising my right to free speech.

For fucks sake these people think western liberals and their silly soft ideals are scum. The women are unclean whores (good enough to shag if young and vulnerable though). They hate our dogs and our pubs and our gay people and our equality. What part of this religion should be encouraged?

Those attitudes are hardly reserved to Islam. I know of plenty of fundamentalist Christians who profess everything you have listed other than hatred of dogs. I know many more Christians who are not remotely like that and believe in love and charity and forgiveness and kindness. Most Muslims I know believe in peace, tolerance and charity and are at least as vulnerable to attack by fundamentalist extremist Muslims as I am.

People do terrible things in the name of all sorts of beliefs. I'm atheist, in many ways anti theist, but my problems with religion are problems with all religions. Throughout history some religionists have used their religious beliefs as justification for evil acts. It's not just Islam.

Yet Muslims suffer the consequences of said retaliation within society.

Well that's not okay. But it doesn't mean that we should stop teachers from teaching about free speech, in case someone gets offended and cuts his head off and some other people get angry at people who defend this and they start being mean to some other people... WIth all due respect, you are being ridiculous. You want to stop the teacher from teacher, rather than the terrorist from beheading. That's where the problem is, and all the other violence and hatred spirals out from THAT act of hatred and terrorism - not from the victim. Not from a cartoon.

I know a few Muslims and meet them most days and most of the people I interact with are perfectly pleasant. My lovely neighbour is Muslim

For fucks sake these people think western liberals and their silly soft ideals are scum

Give me strength.

I honestly don’t know how we (yes, all of us) manage to get through each day with all this pretence and deep rooted hatred.

@queenofknives
“Jesus fucking Christ do you have any idea how offensive this is”

You’re being pretty aggressive. I am just saying what I think. Exercising my right to free speech.

@stairway

If anyone wants an example of an islamophobic post I think MarriedtoDaveGrohl has kindly produced an excellent example.

Fucking hell @stairway I've been asking you for pages and pages, I thought you'd gone deaf to the matter, but turns out you couldn't find any evidence of Islamophobia until this page. To be fair, I read 'these people' in the post as meaning Islamists, rather than as 'all Muslims' given that the poster made a distinction between ordinary Muslims and the kind of people who believe in beheading people. So, what would you have done with this poster? Behead her? Ban her? Get her out of a job? Death threats? Imprisonments? What should the punishment be? We surely couldn't just talk to her, ask her to clarify her comments, and argue against any parts that we thought were wrong or unfair. That would be... well, that would be like we all had free speech! Unconscionable!

You want to stop the teacher from teacher, rather than the terrorist from beheading. That's where the problem is

Exactly. Where is the passion, the grass roots campaigning and activism in weeding out this extremist ideology. Target the mosques and imams preaching hate!

You’re being pretty aggressive. I am just saying what I think. Exercising my right to free speech.

Yes, and I am exercising mine. I defend your right to say disgusting, nasty and stupid things as you unfortunately have done in this thread. Free speech doesn't give you the right to not be disagreed with or insulted or mocked. You can call my response aggressive if you like - I can tell you that the feeling behind it is not anger but genuine shock and abhorrence that you would seek to diminish this tragedy and disrespect this victim and his family, and that you would seek to justify in any way this act of pure hatred and murder. I honestly find your comments utterly repulsive.

Throughout history some religionists have used their religious beliefs as justification for evil acts. It's not just Islam.

Yes Christians in this country used to commit barbaric acts all the time in the name of their religion. It's a shame that the Islamic extremists have not caught up with the times yet.

I am personally amazed as a feminist how the left have embraced and defended Islam and the people who push it on to others. From the parents threatening the headteacher for a very mild version of 'some people are gay' at that school in Birmingham to the live and let live of the incredibly misogynistic customs and behaviour some choose to display and now this

Absolutely! .

The satire is mocking. That is the point of satire. Do you behead everyone who mocks you OP? Or maybe just the ones you really don't agree with? I understand your point very well and it is privileging one group's right to feel offended above everyone else's freedom to speak and give offense if they so wish. Causing offense is not incitement. We have laws which deal with hate speech etc. They should be applied to the parents who stirred up enough anger to make a young man behead someone.

As long as teachers on all sides preach hate and disrespect, unstable people will respond with violence.

'Free expression needs to be just that- with proviso for speech which incites physical violence.

If you believe in free speech it applies to all. And if you do not agree with free speech for those you disagree with you do not support free speech at all.'

Hmm, on the whole I agree with the above but our laws have moved a long way from there with regard to protected characteristics etc.

There is a massive generational divide on this with Gen Z believing protecting people from offence or upset is more important than absolute free speech, and boomers and Gen Xers believing much more in pure free speech.

I am the latter and instinctively defend free speech. I still think that is right and that racial and disablist insults etc etc should be legal, however much disapproved of, and that shining rational argument on idiocy and bigotry is far better than making them illegal.

I think growing up in the shadow of the cold war and the Soviet Union may have influenced the way I think and I am happy to listen the the counterargument, however. There is no 'correct' solution.

@Coronawireless

As long as teachers on all sides preach hate and disrespect, unstable people will respond with violence.

He didn't preach hate. He taught history and geography.

What about the 13 year olds in his class? Did they deserve this too?

@larrygryllis
Yes I agree with above legally but culturally we should disapprove of public speech that is deliberately offensive. No need to hurt people if you don’t have to.

@queenofknives
Your responses are so aggressive that I think it would be impossible to have any conversation or debate with you in real life that in any way disagreed with you. So much for free speech!

@Coronawireless your posts are so illogical I suspect you have an agenda/bias.

Nope.