CPR for 15 mins ,dont know outcome ,airlifted to hospital

[peridito]

Brother in 70's . Friend gave CPR . He must be gone ,don't you think ?
Anyone know if the airlifting might indicate that there was some thought that he might survive ?

@peridito

I can't even really think what a NOK might have to decide ...are we talking turning machines off if he has another heart attack ?

Contrary to what most people believe, NOK has no legal standing or ‘power’ in the UK and most people who enter healthcare services and who have capacity to do so will name or nominate a ‘next of kin’ to speak on their behalf if needed.

Also worth bearing in mind that medical interventions and decisions are decided on by medics and not by patients or families although discussion, consent and agreement are generally sought and achieved.
People can REFUSE medical interventions for themselves but they can’t demand a certain treatment if it’s not thought to be in their best interest (CPR being the most widely discussed one)

In the worst case scenario for your brother, it is likely that the medical team will seek to establish any previously expressed views he may have had about treatment/resuscitation. From what you say about Dignitas, it’s very likely that he has given consideration to many aspects of his healthcare and may have completed an advanced directive ( Living Will)

I honestly wouldn’t broach the subject with his partner at this time. He is critically ill and the medics will be reacting and responding rapidly to changes in his confition.

Thinking of you and your family, @peridito
I really hope he will be ok

Thank you Dominic that all makes sense . I'm so grateful for you ( and others ) taking the time to give help to a stranger .

I won't be raising anything like this with his partner . As has been said ,he's in the best place . We will have to be patient now and wait .

Backtoschool thank you for saying that .

I'm going offline for a bit now .

Hi OP,

Thinking of you and your family, I’m a nurse in a cardiac ICU which receives patients post cardiac arrest.

Being in an induced coma is our normal protocol and we cool our patients down to protect brain function. Our patients are normally kept sedated overnight and part of the following day depending on time of admission. When they do start to wake him up it’s called a sedation hold, so stopping all sedation to assess if/how much brain function remains. There probably won’t be a lot of updates overnight tonight as it’s mostly maintaining sedation and getting through the night.

Hope everything turns out well for you all ❤️

@peridito

Thank you Dominic that all makes sense . I'm so grateful for you ( and others ) taking the time to give help to a stranger .

I won't be raising anything like this with his partner . As has been said ,he's in the best place . We will have to be patient now and wait .

From doing this with my brother, the hospital can set up a password and you can then call the ward for updates, rather than relying upon one person to do it. They might not be able to answer immediately, but when they do, they are lovely.

My only 'warning' is if they ask whether you'd be able to come, they are trying to let you know that putting it off until the weekend, for example, isn't a good option. This doesn't mean there is no prospect of recovery, but it means they are very unwell.

It's fine to text his GF - it would be kind to ask her how she is, as it is emotionally draining and exhausting to be there, although you can be pretty much awake 22 hours a day, fuelled only by adrenaline and coffee for days in my experience - and whilst she did brilliantly with reacting to the immediate situation, the impact of that upon her might not have truly sunk in yet, especially as the bulk of the care and attention is rightly directed at your brother.

I hope you have news as soon as possible in the morning.

I wish all you well.

I would have thought that his long term partner will be treated as the first point of contact. They don't have to be married to be NOK.

@peridito less about switching machines off, more about giving consent for treatment on his behalf if he is in a coma, surgery for example, requires consent by someone if the patient can't give it themselves.

It could simply be a question to her that she's happy to do that and you are here to support if she needs it.

It makes me cry a little that you're all so kind and helpful .

Thank you weegobshite for adding more detail from yet another professional's point of view .

MitiK

it is emotionally draining and exhausting to be there, although you can be pretty much awake 22 hours a day, fuelled only by adrenaline and coffee for days in my experience - and whilst she did brilliantly with reacting to the immediate situation, the impact of that upon her might not have truly sunk in yet, especially as the bulk of the care and attention is rightly directed at your brother

spot on I think .

And I'm also reposting this

if they ask whether you'd be able to come, they are trying to let you know that putting it off until the weekend, for example, isn't a good option

I wish I'd realised this when my mum was admitted ,the nurse was doing her best to tell me to get the rest of the family there .And I didn't get it.Probably didn't hear it because I didn't want to!.

@peridito keeping my fingers crossed for positive news tomorrow.
Please keep an eye on your brother's partner in the weeks and months to come and encourage her to seek support if you think she might need it.
My dh was in icu close to death 20 years ago, followed by a 2 month hospital stay. I survived on adrenalin and when he (thank goodness) made a good recovery I just resumed my life as usual. I ignored all the signs that mentally I wasn't great. Everything caught up with me and I became mentally quite unwell. I still take medication and probably always will. Such difficult times for all concerned.

thank you Hellvelyn .I'm so sorry you went through that and that you're still affected .I can see how that situation can arise though ,thank you for mentioning it .

Oh, @peridito - it's a long, lonely wait and we do understand. I will always be grateful to my friend who texted me throughout the night when I was with my brother before he went in for donation surgery, as her son had undergone transplants. She explained so much and it made such a difference that there was a person I could talk to in silence as his theatre slot approached.

When I did my first Red Cross training, the trainer was a much older man who'd been a paramedic and, whilst he might sound callous, he gave advice that was very much directed at the wellbeing of the first aider - when I've shared with friends who have been in the same situation, they said it provided comfort even in the saddest outcomes;

He said that the person who performed CPR would be wise to think of what they did as if they had done their best for somebody who was, to all intents and purposes, dead already. At the point CPR was started, their chances were absolutely zero and even if at the time, the survival rate was 2% (before community defibs - at my last refresher training it was 20% in my area because of their increase), 2% is more of a chance than zero.

Any attempt is doing a huge amount for the patient and warrants recognition that they did a great thing, not guilt.

He also suggested that anybody who had to perform it sought out counselling, whatever the outcome, because there are aspects and memories of it that can come back later on.

It's so hard. But there are people thinking of you all tonight and throughout the days to come.

Thank you Mitzk .

Yes ,now you've raised it ,I can imagine how such a physical/visceral act must stay with you .The adrenalin must get you through initially but stuff needs to be processed .

Oh my goodness. Wishing you the best possible outcome for your DB. Hand holding for you and your DB partner xx

I’ve done CPR three times, the longest was in a tag team with my partner for over 20 minutes, including three (I think) shocks with a defib. (I was a volunteer with St. John ambulance at the time working in a football stadium).
That patient made a full recovery and came to see us all the next season. The length of cpr isn’t indicative of the outcome necessarily.

I’m glad your brother is now in hospital receiving treatment and I really hope he has a good outcome.

Make sure to look after yourself, and his girlfriend because I found doing CPR on strangers quite traumatic, it must be harder if it’s someone you know and love.

peridito

He would definitely have had an ECG, when the paddles of the defibrillator are applied it shows a single ECG lead - that's what the HCP using the defib (in emergency cases) uses to decide to shock.

I've used a defib numerous times but always in a hospital setting where the patient was already wired up.

OK other tests they mayor may do depend on what they are looking for as an underlying cause, now my knowledge is pre covid but if they thought he was having an Myocardial infarction (MI) (medical term for a heart attack) then he would have been sent for a cardiac catheter and given 'clot buster' drugs.

I'm not going to go into details unless they decide to do one and you want details.

Now they are looking for other reasons for a cardiac arrest.

OK stay with me for a bit. Your body's circulation is a bit like your central heating, the boiler pumps the water round the system and the boiler resounds to inputs like temperature or timings.

The timings are rom an electrical system.

OK your heart has an electrical system too. A cardiac arrest is when this has stopped working completely or gone so haywire it's like sparks going off everywhere. There is another rare condition where the ECG is normal but the heart isn't beating - that would have been dealt with.

So the HCP now have to try to find out what caused the wiring to misbehave and what they can do to stop it happening in the future.

He will be having daily ECGs and probably be on a monitor, an ECG actually shows you what the electrical activity is doing.

He may also be on a temporary pacemaker.

Obviously I'm just giving general information here, it may be that he will be fitted with a pacemaker or an ICD (this is a defib fitted inside the chest with wires to the heart).

He may be sent for an electrophysiology study.

He may also be given medication.

The important thing now is that he is in the best place and being cared for.

Thank you sashh that's a v clear and helpful explanation .

The hospital are thinking it's an electrical signal fault rather than a blockage/narrowing of blood vessels .

I know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and that this is a complex area but I do feel better for being a little more informed .

Thank you again for taking the time to post .

NP Perdito, happy to answer anything I can, either here or PM.

Thank you ,MN posters can be so kind .

Sorry you are having such a stressful and difficult time.

Another good outcome here! My DH had a relatively small heart attack which triggered two cardiac arrests. He was at a festival - luckily with a group of nursing colleagues, right next to the St John's Ambulance tent!

Anyway, he had 7 stents fitted, discharged himself within a few days (not recommended but health care professionals are sometimes the worst patients!)

It takes an emotional toll on you all though and those effects can last for quite a while. Don't ignore them, which is what he did and he had a breakdown 9 months later.

Seven years on, he's in rude health, physically and mentally, and now running a busy department in a general hospital.

I would recommend the Sudden Cardiac Arrest group on Facebook as a source of support. There are many people there who have electrical issues and they often have a little device implanted under the skin near the collar bone which can restart the heart in case of further problems.

Best wishes to you all.

My dh has an electrical problem with his heart. His one is known as LBBB ( Left bundle branch block ) Apparently you can also have the right side version . I believe left is more troublesome than right.

How is your brother op? How are you?

OP

How is he?

VictoriaBun

You can also have a hemi block which is when the branch is partially blocked.

Sorry everyone ,he has gone from having "episodes" to having a stable night where they are happy with his heart rhythm.

His body temperature was returned to normal overnight .They delayed withholding sedation because the unit became very busy but plan to do that today .I am waiting for news .

His lovely ,lovely partner is thinking to herself "I wonder if I did the CPR properly " .I have done everything I can to dislodge this thought but I can understand how insidious it must be .

I have relayed the info.that it's not unusual to need counselling after administering CPR .And she said that was interesting as a couple she knows where one gave 30 mins of CPR on the other split up ,partly due to the trauma felt by the giver .

I'll update later when more news .

That sounds positive.

As for whether she did CPR 'properly', she saved a life, she made things better and that is enough.