Help! I don't want to pay FIL's bills!

[Blurp]

The background: DH has 3 siblings who live nearby. MIL died a few years ago, so FIL lives alone in the house DH grew up in. They describe themselves as "very close" and have always gone to FIL's twice a week for dinner (just the siblings and their kids, not partners). When MIL was alive, she cooked; since her death, they take it in turns to cook, so DH cooks once every other week. This costs about £25 each time, so about £50 per month.

FIL has recently retired. He has absolutely no savings (MIL was a HUGE spender and just spent it all), and gets only a state pension. He's realised that he can't afford to pay for all the bills. The house has 6 bedrooms, so it's huge, expensive Council tax, expensive to heat etc.

In my head, the solution is that he needs to move somewhere smaller and more manageable. However, DH & siblings are not in favour of this because then they wouldn't be able to go round all at once, certainly not twice a week.

His brother has suggested that they all chip in each month to cover the bills - about £50 each. So including the cost of cooking once a fortnight, we'd be forking out about £100 a month for this.

We could afford it, but we'd be sacrificing other things. For instance, we'd like to move to a bigger house (the kids would love some outdoor space). But that would be very tight financially if we had this extra money to pay each month. We'd also like to start saving some money for the kids each month too - £25 each would build up to a decent amount.

DH agrees with me in principle, but is being put under pressure by his siblings. He said he'd feel bad continuing to go to dinner twice a week if he wasn't paying his share. But he also doesn't want FIL to have to move, thereby possibly meaning that they can no longer all visit together.

There was a vague suggestion at one stage that if FIL didn't have enough space, they'd all take it in turns to go round each others' houses, so we'd host every other week. This won't work because both me and one of the other siblings partners work from home and it would be too disruptive (and anyway, I don't really want a big crowd of people in the house once a fortnight). Again, I feel like I'm getting in the way of the plans.

Any suggestions? Is it unfair of me to say no to us paying money to FIL each month? Or is it reasonable to expect him to live within his means, even if that means moving house?

I think that the siblings are clinging onto their Mums memory and childhood memories by continuing the meal tradition and wanting to retain the family home. You resent the situation.

As a family you need to chat, with partners included, decide what’s affordable, what’s not. Create a plan, speak to a financial advisor about possibility of all the siblings been given a share of the property, then contributing to the upkeep would be easier to justify.

@Choppedupapple

I think that the siblings are clinging onto their Mums memory and childhood memories by continuing the meal tradition and wanting to retain the family home. You resent the situation.

As a family you need to chat, with partners included, decide what’s affordable, what’s not. Create a plan, speak to a financial advisor about possibility of all the siblings been given a share of the property, then contributing to the upkeep would be easier to justify.

If FIL eventually needs to go into care his home will be taken as an asset, family having a share of the property is trumped by his needs so that would be seen as deliberate deprivation

They place great importance on "not disrupting him"

Hmm, sounds as though they'd be loathe to tell him the truth, that he can't afford to retire AND stay in such a large house.

I think all you can do is talk through FIL's options with your DH, so he can suggest them to his siblings. Doesn't sound as though they'd listen to you.

Also, stand firm to your DH that your family money will not be used for his DF but on your own family, you/DH/your DC.

My Parents are both in their late 80s and don’t behave like this. They would be utterly mortified if there was even a need for us to be bailing them out of bills. Relying on your children to go without just because you can’t be arsed to work or make appropriate financial decisions is pretty shitty - so much for family is important.
If he won’t downsize, why the hell cant he get a part time job?

Is there an option to trade houses?
You could then offer to host everyone once a month as a compromise.
Six bedrooms would mean you could have a private office and still plenty of room.

Don't make it too complicated. It's not your responsibility to negotiate the overall decision, but you can make your feelings clear to your DH about paying for DFs bills, because that is a very slippery slope

Perhaps suggest that if this does go ahead, then the equivalent sum goes into savings for your DCs future. If you can't afford both then DH needs to understand what the right priority should be.

Twice a week is too much in my eyes personally but hey ho...

I would not be happy with this, tbh. He could live another 30 years!

Why would op have to pay for her fil nursing care?

Are the siblings protecting their inheritance instead of encouraging FiL to downsize and possibly spending the money? FiL is a similar age to me and I would never entertain my DC paying my bills or indeed coming for dinner twice a week!

It doesn't sound like it's driven by a desire to protect the inheritance, more an inability to communicate directly with their DF and a desire to keep traditions and the original family in place.

All of which will be very difficult to address to a satisfactory conclusion and I suspect the family will become less close along the way, hence its about OP drawing her own red lines and not agreeing to pay someone else's bills appears to be a reasonable one to choose.

There's no reason why a smaller house would not fit in a table for 5. The £50 for 8 meals seems a bit irrelevant TBH as you'd spend some of that feeding him at home otherwise. The £50 towards bills - depends on how tight things are for you and what priorities are.

You know what will happen- FIL will meet and marry a woman far his junior.

That'll kybosh the inheritance!

Like most, I think the current arrangement sounds bats.

@Iwonder08

OP, unless your DH is financially dependent on you and you are in fact the one paying for this I would say you are very unreasonable. It is not your business to suggest your FIL to move out of his home. It is great you DH's family is close and getting along. It might be very important for FIL to continue these get together meals especially after his wife died.

You are making assumptions here. It is entirely reasonable for the OP to raise objections to family money paying someone else's expenses.

Before anyone considers "chipping in" have his finances been thoroughly and properly reviewed to check:

1 he's receiving everything he's entitled to - is he getting pension credits or other income that he should be?

2 his outgoings aren't unnecessarily excessive - is he on the best/cheapest options for:

gas/electric - switch him if necessary many pensioners are paying more than absolutely necessary for this

water (if privatised where you are)

TV/phone/WiFi (if he has - if he doesn't have WiFi you could well find that this is actually meaning his phone costs are higher than necessary, he doesn't need to use it though I am sure the siblings/grandchildren would find it useful) - weirdly these days it's often cheaper to get packages that include more than just have a phone contract

Mobile phone - if he has one is he on the best contract for his usage?

Council tax - has he made sure he's getting the single person discount following wife's passing? People often forget such things

Insurances - if he has contents and buildings ins (I'm assuming yes as he owns) is it the most appropriate and cost effective for him? People very often don't change this from when they bought the place!

Groceries - again is he doing grocery shopping cost effectively? Doesn't necessarily mean he has to cut back or change to brands he doesn't like (though it can be good if possible to get him to try cheaper options and find they're actually ok) but is he shopping in the more expensive supermarkets? If so perhaps persuade him to use cheaper ones, to shop around? How about loyalty cards and vouchers is he making sure he has and uses things like this?

Other shopping - as per groceries is he shopping in higher end/more expensive shops when there's really no need? Is he being savvy and taking advantage of loyalty cards and special offers?

I mention all of the above as we had similar issues (though they weren't living in 6 bed mansions which I have to be honest and say is bloody ridiculous for a single man! Aside from the money it must be exhausting cleaning and maintaining it!) with my grandparents.

They were pretty savvy with the shopping side of things being they were working class and never really had loads of money, but they were inexperienced and unaware of things like the benefits they were entitled to and not claiming and also didn't understand things like energy switching.

One gran once we had persuaded her to LET us review her finances and overhaul it for her was over £2000 a month better off as a result! Mainly due to reducing energy and insurance bills rather than increasing income.

As I said utterly ridiculous and not sustainable for a single man in pensionable years to stay in a 6 bed property purely for the sake of family meals a couple of times a week.

I'm from a slightly larger original family (3 kids) and a HUGE wider family (mums 1 of 6 dad 1 of 5) and my grandparents were in much smaller properties and yet I very fondly remember many Christmas dinners and other occasions at theirs where everyone attended (so all their children, plus spouses/partners, plus the grandchildren) and everyone was fitted in and had a rare old time!

they also all bring their kids, so it's a total of 14 people.

Mums side at the maximum it was 25!! Grandparents, great gran, mum & siblings, partners and spouses and grandchildren and that was in a 2.5 bed tenement flat in glasgow!

Even if he downsized to "only" a 3/4 bed he'd still have PLENTY of room for these occasions.

It's simply a case I think of finding somewhere that may have smaller and fewer bedrooms but the downstairs/living area is open plan/large enough to accommodate.

Have they or you even looked at any other properties in the area?

My parents are in a small 2 bed and the dining table still seats 8 - 10 comfortably. Perhaps they need introducing to the concept of a "kids table" as so many of us accept as normal?

I think they had a look and the houses that were more affordable tended not to have separate dining rooms, and the living rooms wouldn't be big enough for all of them I suspect they didn't look that bloody hard!! Bed they only looked within the immediate vicinity too.

My mum has a brother that is an arse about only living in one particular expensive part of glasgow and absolutely wont consider even a mile outside that, stupid and unnecessary snobbery that means he is in a house that's really too expensive for him and paying higher council tax than strictly necessary too.

Also agree FIL needs to be put in front of a recommended, clever financial advisor before any decisions are made just by siblings. Options will open right up when this is done totally agree!!

I do also agree them all getting together twice a week every week is utterly bonkers! This is not normal!

Most families get together like this only for special occasions - milestone birthdays and anniversaries and Christmas. Which within a large family ends up happening fairly frequently anyway, certainly most months which is more than enough for such meet-ups.

If it's a case of wanting to keep a subtle eye on "dad" to ensure he's coping and not getting too lonely etc then even each sibling taking it in turn each week to go with their WHOLE families inc partner/spouse, as there's 4 of them that still means he gets a weekly visit from someone.

In terms of FIL's wishes, I'm not sure that they've really asked him. I think he's said "the bills are getting a bit much" and the siblings have swung into action so it's entirely possible HE wants to downsize, the house may be starting to prove too much for him cleaning/maintenance wise?

And that's while he's relatively young (as a pensioner) and still in fairly good health.

My parents are now in their 70's and both in pretty poor health and very much regretting not moving to a bungalow years ago as they now really struggle to manage the stairs and bathroom even though they've made a number of adaptations.

He could well be thinking he's going to be facing the same problems.

It's even MORE ridiculous - and unfair - for him to stay in a house he can't cope in because your dh and his siblings are hanging onto sentimentality!

They need to wise up! Seriously!

I'm beginning to think you need a meeting with the other partners/spouses and see what they think too.

@Miljea

You know what will happen- FIL will meet and marry a woman far his junior.

That'll kybosh the inheritance!

Like most, I think the current arrangement sounds bats.

Funny that has just happened to a friend his mum dementia gone into a home, dad has been seeing a woman for a couple of years 30 odd years his junior, he has moved her into his home now. Family are in bits over this. He is mid 80`s though.

What’s the plan for when the house needs a new roof (£7000?), a new boiler (£1000?), redecorating (£5000?) - are you all going to chip in?
Are you going to start paying for a cleaner?

As per my previous comments, your FiL needs to decide how to sort himself out - and moving is the most logical decision.

But you - and it seems your DH - can’t make that happen unilaterally. So you need to to get your DH on board with not subsidising your FiL’s lifestyle. No bills, no handouts, nothing. Because it’s not sustainable and it’s not fair.

The family meals are a separate issue. Personally I wouldn’t tolerate my DH taking my kids somewhere twice a week where I am unwelcome and they are routinely bored, ignored and bullied. So that’s a conversation to have as well... But in the short term you may wish to let the meals go and focus on drawing a firm boundary around a refusal to allow any extra expenditure.

This gets worse with your updates.
He is only 65 ish but sounds extremely set in his ways and used to all his children running around after him as if he were 20 years older. He also sounds very selfish just expecting his children to pay his bills without question when he could be perfectly comfortable in a much smaller house. It sounds as if your DH's family have simply got into certain patterns of behaviour which suit them for various reasons and haven't really grown up and moved on and understood that they now have their own families to prioritise.

Tell you what though, a nice widower would put a stop to all these family meals quick sharpish though OP. Maybe you can start encouraging him to get out and about when Covid restrictions lift?

It's just occurred to me though OP- my nana and grampa lived in a 2/3 bed terrace and when we were all there for dinner there were more than 14 of us; it was a squash and a squeeze but that was half the fun. Whatever your ILs feel your FIL needs the current house for, family dinners can't be it... surely?

Maybe get FIL on tinder, find him a nice lady who will soon put a stop to it.

I generally don't mind helping family out, but I prefer it to be for certain defined one offs. I would never feel comfortable giving an allowance for ever to a perfectly capable adult. You really don't want him as another dependant, do you?

I have been on the periphery of one of these close families that say they always help each other out. This is fine in theory, but in practice, it was always one way. If people spend money as soon as they get it, they are in no danger of having to lend it to anyone else.

Its great that they're all so close, but it sounds like these twice weekly dinners are compulsory and it must take up such a lot of leisure time? What if (for example) the OP's DH wanted to take up cycling/football coaching or something similar - with two of his evenings already taken up every week, then there's not much time left for anything else? It all sounds a bit odd to me.

The house is too big however how is it costing you £25 quid every 2 weeks what are you finding him. Surely you can do batch cooking.

I feel for you OP. All very well people telling you to shut this shit down now and get DFIL to downsize, but you're unlikely to convince the siblings to deviate from this fucking money pit of a plan they've cooked up between them- you're an "outsider", it'll be like pissing into the wind. Even if you convince your DH, his place in the pecking order will determine if his views are taken into account by the others.

Of course if you are on good enough terms to discuss this with the other spouses you could see if you can get them onside. With so many of them this might be easier said than done.

Realistically all you can do is outline the issues to your DH, point out that FIL downsizing now is the most "future proof" solution, and say the priority should be your children and making sure their home fits their needs as far as possible. Using family funds to bankroll his father will hinder that.

The sibling's behaviour towards their father is bizarre, but it reminds me of my DH and BIL with my PIL. They almost get competitive around it; which brother can "look after" them more. Luckily MIL tells them to stop being so ridiculous, but FIL can be quite happy to be pandered to!

I don't think £100 a month on your own dad in times of need is that much.
I think it's lovely the family are so close and helping in this way.