My 9 year old called us all the C word. Repeatedly.

[TheKidsGoneFeral]

First up, addressing where the hell he learned that word from, because we never say it. My teenager didn't know that word until he was in secondary school. My 9yo is best friends and been playing with a child who has a difficult home life, has a SW, and has a bit of a sweaty family. I might be wrong but this might be where it came from. We really love his friend, so I need to have a think how to move forward with this because a few things have happened now. But setting that aside for a minute.

I have a 1 year old, his naps are changing, this means very occasionally (very very occasionally!) I will misjudge his day time nap and he won't go to bed until 9pmish (usually 7).

9yo DS goes to bed 8ish, he wants a later bedtime and I agreed but I want 7 days of good behaviour first. No answering back, no being rude, no kicking off at bed time.

He's been great, apart from last night (day 5 of 7). Toddler ds was downstairs and 9yo was going absolutely crazy, he hates his life, why aren't we normal, he gets treated like a 3yo, we're all cunts, he hates us.

Nice.

The day before we had just bought him a bike that cost us £100 (second hand but still!) and he got passed down my iPhone as well.

In response to the disgusting behaviour, the bike, phone, and freedom have gone.
I want them gone for a week.

Am I taking it too far?

I'm going to anticipate some questions
"Why not just let him stay up with the toddler?"

Two reasons, if he doesn't get enough sleep, the next day he becomes a hyperactive nightmare that's very difficult to deal with. This makes the following nighttime even worse. School are suggesting new has ADHD, I'm not convinced but we are following that route in case he does.

Secondly, he was supposed to do 7 days of good behaviour to earn a later bedtime. This was part of it. Not kicking off. I can't just give him a later bedtime, his behaviour has been a bit rubbish so he needed to earn it.

Thirdly, he wakes up 5-6am, whether he goes to bed at 8 or 9, and we notice that a short amount of sleep effects his behaviour (I realise 8 seems very early to some, but he reads his books for a bit).

Any advice?

If you feel that these words are coming from his friend then your well within your right to stop him from seeing his friend.

This is never going to happen. We love this kid, my son loves this kid.
I can't stop him seeing him just because he has a shitty home life. This kid has sworn a lot at my house (in excitement and joy, funnily enough!)
So I've had to put a stop to that.
I'm not really sure how to proceed.
And like others have said - maybe that's not where he got the word from.

With regards to 1-1 with my son, we have this regularly. We did an hour of badminton together the night before last. Previous to that day I was doing a long shift but the day before that I took him shopping, got him new clothes and we had a Costa together.

So it does happen.

He's just asked me in a moody sullen voice when he can have his phone back, that he's been good all day. It's 10am and he woke up at 6, so not all day. Then be told me to shut up.

I just said to him

"If you have lost your phone because of bad behaviour, would do you think needs to happen to earn it back?"

I want him to engage his brain. I want him to apologise and behave.

Am I asking him too much by asking him to think for himself what the opposite of being naughty is?

He just gets pissed off and demands I give him an exact date that he can have it back.

He doesn't want to discuss behaving in order to earn it back.

And you don’t want to discuss a Anything other than he needs to do as you say or you’ll punish him.

Look op. You’re coming across as if you’re adamant you’re right, and everyone else can fuck off, if you don’t wish advice, just to keep doing what you’re doing then crack on, but what you’re doing could be construed as touching on bullying your own child.

If you don’t wish to teach him to compromise, to discuss, to understand, or you’re unable to, then I strongly suspect this is just going to get worse. Before you loose total control as he ages.

Because that’s the thing, kids grow up. And you’re setting yourself up for a war you can never win, simoly the battle when he’s young enough to be impotent against you. It’s your decision if you wish to change direction and try to engage in different behaviours and lead by example.

I know my DD doesn’t make the link herself yet so we’ll agree what she needs to do to regain the privilege I’ve removed. The problem is that “behave nicely” covers a huge area so I’ll pick 2 or 3 things that matter to me eg you need to tidy your bedroom, not hit your brother and help mum fold the laundry”, that way she knows specifically what she needs to do.

Tbh she’ll usually come and apologise when she’s ready, I don’t need to ask her to do that because she knows it’s part of repairing our relationship in exactly the same way I’ll apologise to her when I’ve got it wrong.

@TheKidsGoneFeral - it sounds like you are handling things well considering.

Ds1 10, adhd even now cannot deal well with being called out for poor behaviour. It always has to be somebody else's fault, or It wouldn't have happened if Y.

Ime, asking for an apology was too much for ds1. Sometimes they came, sometimes they didn't. But he didn't, doesn't always have the capacity to understand why a behaviour is not acceptable. It's just how their brains are wired. That's not to say we just put up with it, of course we don't because we don't want our children to end up behind bars as they grow up and at least if we explain why we don't do x or why Z has to happen, we are showing actions have consequences.

And yeah, ds1 would be very specific about when something was going to happen - if I said 'I'm a minute' , he would count to 60!

Discussion is also hard as it's asking them to have deeper insight into why they did something.

I found verbalising how I felt about things was a good way to show how an emotion might look - eg mummy is angry right now because of X. Please give me some space to deal with that or mummy is so happy with your positive school report, you're so good at A/B. Etc.

Thanks Jellycat. That's helpful, I think we should do exactly that. Pick some chores that help everyone.

He's adamant that he shouldn't have to apologise at the moment and that he was well within his rights to react the way he did.

This is winding me up, but I'm refusing to let that show and wonder if I should just forget any expectation of an apology? But that feels wrong.

Ok. I'm going to be honest with you- what advice are you wanting OP? Or is this just to sound off? Not knocking you as this is something I often do myself and my partner tries to offer solutions to 'fix' the problem! But it seems you are bogged down with it and not really taking on any advice offered.

That's good about the one to one time. Keep that up. Definitely see if you adjust that bedtime.

If you are determined to keep his friend around then I think you need to have a frank chat about the reality of this boy's home life with your son and why you have completely different expectations to his parents- I would also stress that this stays between you and him as a conversation and that you can discuss this stuff with him as he is grown up and won't let you down by talking about it to others. I would make it very clear that this boy's home life is far from 'fun'- your son will just see this boy as having great freedom at the moment. I would start by asking him where he has learnt that word- if it is his friend then you need to keep your son away from this boy's home environment completely.

Ds1 10, adhd even now cannot deal well with being called out for poor behaviour. It always has to be somebody else's fault, or It wouldn't have happened if Y.

Yes!! We have this!! Is infuriating sometimes.
I see him do something with my own eyes but he will deny he did it. Even if he knows that I saw him. I can't get my head round that.
Is that linked to ADHD?

Hi, I work in a PRU and deal with a lot of children with behaviour problems.

And yeah, ds1 would be very specific about when something was going to happen - if I said 'I'm a minute' , he would count to 60!

He does this too.

He's now washing up! Just as I was thinking washing up would be a good start, he came in and suggested it himself.

So thank you to those who suggested small jobs like that. I honestly couldn't see the woods for the trees when I first posted.

I'm under illusion that this is fixed. And perhaps this is more ADHD related than I thought.
But assessments have been backlogged even more than usual because of coronavirus.

It's ok to forget an expectation of an apology whilst maintaining that the behaviour wasn't acceptable. Your son absolutely believes that he was right in his behaviour so any apology wouldn't actually mean anything right now, it would be said simply to appease you.

I don’t see how giving him the phone and a bike can be justified when he had only had 4 good days. Harsh as it sounds, I’d be limiting his time with this friend who’s allowed to roam the streets in the dark.

Is he frustrated at the attention given to his brother?

It is 'fixable' or rather adaptable. Hang in there, honestly. Assessments will come through soon enough (I found being the squeaky wheel helped us when things felt like they were going backwards). We are currently waiting on a video CAMHS appointment, well overdue even before COVID, because ds1 needs his adhd meds tweaking now he has grown - again, another game changer for us. We get a lot less violence and a bit more understanding that it's ok to walk away and take some time out to cool off.

I didn't mean to post that bit already- but I work in a PRU. So I deal with these sorts of outbursts hourly at work!

1 thing to remember - all kids want attention. And some children don't care if it's negative or positive!
It may be worth not bringing too much attention to the work 'cunt' and just sitting him down and explaining why it is bad. Say it makes mummy and daddy feel horrid because it's such a rude word.

He is 9 and will understand 😊

Also- remember you are doing a great job and I don't think what you have done is too extreme at all. He needs to learn what is appropriate. Just make sure you are always praising good behaviour and tell him when he's Had a good morning/afternoon etc. Make everything as positive as possible😊

As for the ADHD- it comes in lots of different forms and 100% worth testing for, especially if that's what school says. I can tell an ADHD child from the first 10 mins of meeting them! You need to know if he has got it 😊

P.s. You are an amazing mum and keep up the good work💪🏻💪🏻. The iPhone is totally your choice and is no different from toddlers who have iPads!

He's adamant that he shouldn't have to apologise at the moment and that he was well within his rights to react the way he did.

So, if you press for an apology he’s just going to say sorry because you want him to, not because he thinks there’s anything wrong and that’s pointless. My kids understand that I always love them, but sometimes don’t like their behaviour and sometimes don’t want to be around them because of the way they’ve behaved. I try to make a distinction between behaviour that’s wrong (lying, stealing, hitting) and behaviour I don’t like (swearing, back chat) because some things aren’t objectively right or wrong but might be annoying.

With your son I’d separate out the feelings from the behaviours - he’s perfectly writing his rights to feel frustrated and angry that in his mind he’s being treated like a 3 year old. The way he expressed that (swearing and trashing his room) isn’t ok. I’d help him think about how that turned out (removal of privileges, mum angry with him, still talking about it) and help him work out a better way to do it. I also wouldn’t be all chummy chummy with him - my kids know when they’ve crossed a line and while I don’t demand an apology, I’m not all smiley, singsong, cheery mum with them until things are repaired.

OP I feel for you, we had that here a week ago with 8yo. First thing I absolutely deplore the word or any swearing so I have to be mindful that while I feel like that, and I'm possibly a little uptight, he doesn't have a clue of the societal view of the word or why one word is deemed worse than another. That's really important imo. My dh absolutely lost the plot and like that out punishments in place which meant we were all effected for a few days, ott imo and I told him so. In my case ds had been sagged after losing to friends and came in fuming, he needed to cool down and then be spoken to coolly and without being so invested in the word. In our case it has most definitely been learned from a 5yo (!) on our street who just swears as part of his everyday lexicon. I can't stand it. Parents don't care. So all I can do is let ds know we don't use those words in our house.

Praise the washing up! Overly so! It feels so fake when you do it but over-egg the praise for positive behaviour so he remembers that rather than the telling off for poor behaviour. It's one of many things they suggest in parenting courses (of which you may well have to do a few during assessment to show that you're doing everything you can to help).

I have a dd and a ds with ADHD. Both are adults now but still require some help and guidance. The following may help.

1. Don't set unachievable goals. eg. Good behaviour for seven days. It's too long.
2. Don't challenge behaviour, discuss when both calmer. Set out your expectations and ask them theirs, try to meet them together.
3. Pick your battles, and explain your reasoning. eg. We are sending you to bed earlier because it will help you have a better day tomorrow, we have noticed that you aren't as able to control your emotions if you have a late night.
4. Discuss every strategy. Accept that the child concerned has a difficulty and do all you can to enable child to put coping strategies into place.

I hope this helps.

Omg I can hear the hoover!

Honestly if you can hear the hoover, I’d accept that as an apology - remember behaviour is communication and try to look behind the behaviour to what he’s trying to say.

I think demanding an apology is just more controlling behaviour. It’s what happens in a coercive relationship. Forced apologies are not sincere and they are just another battleground. If he’s volunteered to help - in a way, that’s an apology! Build on actions rather than demands. Set out what is reasonable for him and achievable. He’s not going to school for another 6 weeks so you could negotiate a later bedtime. That means he gets time with you during which you can chat about plans for the next few days. Something to look forward to.

You seem to want to be a social service to the friend and, if that’s the case, it will challenge you as parenting styles are clearly different. Most dc end up being friends with dc on the same parenting wavelength.

You didn’t answer my question about other friends. Have these 2 boys found each other because other dc aren’t keen on them? I know this definitely happens and it’s quite a problem for the future if this is the case because he will end up trying to copy his friend and you welcome this dc into your home do validate his choice of friend and all that entails. It will result in future battles and your DS might well struggle to engage with what you want in the fire if friend is running wild.

You didn’t answer my question about other friends. Have these 2 boys found each other because other dc aren’t keen on them?

Sorry I didn't see that question.

They are good friends at school, there's a group of about 6 of them.
We moved about 8 months ago and it happened to be a few doors down from this kid, the other kids live further away.

However, of that group of 6, 5 of them have troubling behaviour, they have outside help for this in various forms of which im not privy too.
I include my son in the troubling behaviour and it certainly seems as though they are all kindred spirits...

My son also has Tourette's syndrome which I believe might be linked to ADHD?

I was diagnosed with dyslexia during my second degree and the educational psychologist said I need to consider getting further evaluation for ADHD.

I assuming this could be hereditary?

Anyway, I wonder if this is also something that causes DS and I to be at loggerheads.

I've just had a 15 minute in-depth chat with him about freedom.

I've agreed with him that he can go across to the green with his friends (his behaviour is erratic, I've always said this is why I can't trust him go across)

And now he's crying because all his friends are allowed to go to the park alone (other side of town).

I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

I give him some leeway and he's crying because he hasn't got the world.

Give me strength!

I called my Dad a cunt when I was about 9!

Learnt the word from my brother and school. Brother denied it! He also taught me how to say “piss off”. Denied that too!

Took my DS a nice but studenty town last Summer & practically everyone who walked by was swearing at each other in mid conversation. It was so bad I had to stop & explain that swearing isn’t nice.

@TheKidsGoneFeral

Sorry, but you read like a very unreasonable excuse for a parent and I feel sorry for your child tbh

In what way?

That was a horrible thing to say, I don't think the op comes across as bad at all. She is presented with a new and difficult situation and is wondering how to handle it but I'm sure she will handle it.

Just impress upon your son that the C word is not to be used and you never want to hear him say it again (make sure he doesn't look at Mumsnet where it is part of the normal vernacular); I agree with others that a seven day punishment is unrealistic, a couple of days will be sufficient but give him the opportunity to apologise. Kids pick up words from all sorts and sometimes become frustrated and blurt them out - I'm 70 and remember using the F word to parents when I was 15 or so; you can imagine the outrage that caused back then. However they are only words and he'll realise it is unacceptable to say them.

He does need to behave, he's part of a family and has to consider the others. However it has been a difficult time for everyone recently (except 'oldies' like me :-), so there are bound to be meltdowns.

Let him stay up later and play in the garden; be nice and he will respond to that but no child is perfect. This will pass.

Good luck.