My 9 year old called us all the C word. Repeatedly.

[TheKidsGoneFeral]

First up, addressing where the hell he learned that word from, because we never say it. My teenager didn't know that word until he was in secondary school. My 9yo is best friends and been playing with a child who has a difficult home life, has a SW, and has a bit of a sweaty family. I might be wrong but this might be where it came from. We really love his friend, so I need to have a think how to move forward with this because a few things have happened now. But setting that aside for a minute.

I have a 1 year old, his naps are changing, this means very occasionally (very very occasionally!) I will misjudge his day time nap and he won't go to bed until 9pmish (usually 7).

9yo DS goes to bed 8ish, he wants a later bedtime and I agreed but I want 7 days of good behaviour first. No answering back, no being rude, no kicking off at bed time.

He's been great, apart from last night (day 5 of 7). Toddler ds was downstairs and 9yo was going absolutely crazy, he hates his life, why aren't we normal, he gets treated like a 3yo, we're all cunts, he hates us.

Nice.

The day before we had just bought him a bike that cost us £100 (second hand but still!) and he got passed down my iPhone as well.

In response to the disgusting behaviour, the bike, phone, and freedom have gone.
I want them gone for a week.

Am I taking it too far?

I'm going to anticipate some questions
"Why not just let him stay up with the toddler?"

Two reasons, if he doesn't get enough sleep, the next day he becomes a hyperactive nightmare that's very difficult to deal with. This makes the following nighttime even worse. School are suggesting new has ADHD, I'm not convinced but we are following that route in case he does.

Secondly, he was supposed to do 7 days of good behaviour to earn a later bedtime. This was part of it. Not kicking off. I can't just give him a later bedtime, his behaviour has been a bit rubbish so he needed to earn it.

Thirdly, he wakes up 5-6am, whether he goes to bed at 8 or 9, and we notice that a short amount of sleep effects his behaviour (I realise 8 seems very early to some, but he reads his books for a bit).

Any advice?

@AnOrdinaryMum that's very harsh and uncalled for.

Please don't blame another child for your child's behaviour because they have a social worker.

Eh? I suggested perhaps it was because the family are sweary.
And I also suggested that maybe, despite them being sweary, that I could be wrong.

Why would it be because he had a social worker. I was just giving background because his friend has a difficult home life and DS has learned a few other things over there which I've had to explain are dangerous, and not to be done here.

You totally took that out of context.

The child being sweary and having a social worker have no link. You suggested it by mentioning the social worker. The social worker bears no relevance to the child's family being 'sweary'.

I really do think having measurable small goals which are daily and which give him the chance to be a great kid every day are the way to go.

I hear you. Can you give an example?
This is very much around him wanting a later bedtime.

The other thing - my apologies for the drip feed!
Is that his best mate, the one mentioned before, is allowed a LOT of freedom. He's out until 9-10 at night. In the winter he's roams the street in the dark even at 8-9 at night (he was 8 at the time).

My DS now things it's normal and he should be allowed to do this as well.

And that's why I'm a cunt because I treat him like a three year old.

So if it doesn't have to be 7 consecutive days, he could potentially not get his reward for a month?

I agree with PP that 7 days is an impossible target. Why not allow his bedtime to be later on good days and remove the privilege on bad days.

Based on the reasons you've given for his current bedtime, I'm inclined to think that you don't want to make his bedtime later anyway, no matter what his behaviour is like. I have a 9 year old. When the world was normal, we had lights out at 8pm. But in the current climate, I'm lucky if he's asleep before 930. They're not at school and being worn out like they usually would be.

His use of language was unacceptable. So talk to him. Tell him that. And lay out very clear boundaries for using it.

He could have learned the word at school prior to lockdown. Your older child could have taught him. Aforementioned 9 year old told me to 'fuck off' when he was about 7. DH and I never swear in front of the DC, ever (but swear in adult company). When we spoke to DS, we found he had learned it from a child in his class, who had learned it from an older sibling.

I can be a very reactive parent, taking away everything in a moment to punish them. My DH still has to remind me that doing that doesn't achieve anything. And that we should celebrate the good more. I'm very good at doing it professionally (SEN TA). It's trickier at home. So you have my empathy.

No you are absolutely not being too harsh. But if you have said no phone or bike for a week, you must must must stick to it. If you don’t, other consequences for bad behaviour in the future will seem meaningless.
You set the rules. You are the parent and in charge. If you want him to go to bed at a certain time and the baby is not ready on that occasion then he needs to listen and do as he is told.
As for calling you that name- did he actually know that was a Bad swear word or was he just using it not really knowing how horrible a word that is? In any case, if any of my DC spoke to me like that I would have done the same things as you.

Thank you.

I actually did try the reward - later bedtime.
Bad behaviour - not a later bedtime.

But my GOD did he kick off then. Big time, absolutely hell tantrums, destroying his room and ended up being asleep way later than the later bedtime would have been!
Consistency is good.

But as his behaviour has been crap, I wanted some good before he got his later bedtime.

It's never taken a month, it's always been 7-10 days and it's never not worked to be honest. It's always worked for him (it NEVER worked with my eldest, conversely).

So it's not unachievable for him. This is a red herring.

Thanks Time2change that's how I felt.

But I'm not feeling very confident about it.

Bedtime shouldn’t be up for negotiation with a child. 8pm is late enough, maybe 9 on a Saturday.
Swearing as he did is because he’s lost control. It’s not the word, it’s the process. I can understand him having a goal to earn a privilege, but bed time isn’t a privilege. Sleep is a necessity like food. I’d never negotiate on bed times.
I’d always have a consequence for poor behaviour that doesn’t necessarily involve taking away basic stuff like a bike. Eg if a child has an Xbox they can use it for 1 hour a day. If they’ve had a particularly good day they can earn an extra 30 mins For the next day. At his age, hormones will be kicking in, reasonableness flies out of the window. He needs to know what the boundaries are and who’s in charge.

The bike is gone.
He's only had it a few days and it cost a lot of money (for us).

If he wants exercise then he's got his scooter.

But the bike is definitely gone for a week.

Yes, but he's older now, and reward/punishment schemes can feel a bit babyish. On this occasion it didn't work out. He's telling you he feels like he's treated like a baby. This isn't just about his friend- it's about the fact that pre-teens start to struggle for their freedom a bit, and so you need to consider whether actually, it would be fine for him to go to bed at 9 when there's no school- in fact, you agree this is fine, but wanted to use that as a lever to get good behaviour which didn't work.

The thing that leaps out to me is school thinks there's an issue and possible ADHD. Schools are not usually prone to over-reacting and are often quite motivated to downplay behaviour. Plus he does behave badly at home. So- I think I'd be looking towards trying to post about that, get some ideas of where to get help/possible assessment, speak with the school and then parent around that (e.g there's a book called the Explosive Child).

If it turns out he's just going through a bit of an off phase and it's not permanent (my dd's behaviour at 7/8 was just terrible, she would destroy a room,but it totally burned out by teens), then great.

I understand why you are a bit defensive, but we are only trying to help! Just throwing ideas out some of which might work.

I don’t think expecting a child to behave for a week is unattainable but it totally depends on the child and the different levels of expected behaviour.

OP regarding the bed time I’d offer 15 mins extra if he had a good day.

He probably doesn’t realise what cunt even means or the severity of it when it’s used. Cunt always has a much bigger impact than other words.

If you feel that these words are coming from his friend then your well within your right to stop him from seeing his friend.

He seems to do a lot of attention seeking behaviour. How much 1-2-1 time do you have with him? Do you physically touch him a lot? Or have a lot of eye contact? I know it sounds daft but I read about about re engaging with your kids and their behaviour and the suggested aiming to physically touch your kids 20 times a day such as touching their shoulder when they are talking to you, if they allow give them a random cuddle, giving them a friendly pat when you are walking past them. Also giving them compliments.

This made a massive difference with my eldest who hated me

I would say there are 2 issues. The primary one being his behaviour in general. You seem to have been given lots of advice on that aspect.

The other issue of calling you all cunts, is something, in my opinion being blown out of proportion. I think you're perceiving it in the same way as if, say your DH called you all cunts. Your son is 9, this is not the same as an adult who infrequently swears using this word. He will have been told its a bad/strong word, but won't really have any context for that and as you said it isn't being bandied about at home.

I get it, its unpleasant to hear from your child. Handle the word issue by explaining its bad, and only for adults and so when he uses it doesn't make sense. We swear at home, a lot, but have made it clear DC don't do this in the way they don't drink, go out when they feel like it or have to pay bills!

Stick to the early bedtime as without enough sleep behaviour is affected for us all.

The punishment seems way OTT to me though.

I have a 9 year old, she can be a handful. Her bed time is 8.30, she can go up at 8.00 and have some quiet time to settle but lights out at 8.30. We have days she’ll stay up later maybe for a movie or on holiday but she does still need a lot of sleep so I feel your pain.

She wouldn’t manage 7 days of good behaviour, it’s too much with an immediate reward or outcome. Instead she has daily targets around helping in the house, doing what she’s asked to do etc and we try to catch her doing good rather than looking for things she’s done wrong.

In terms of the swearing - she’ll occasionally swear in a frustrated kind of way, and I’ll remind her to watch her words. She knows it’s not ok to swear at people though and we would discipline her for that (removal of privileges, grounding, finding a chore for her). In your sons case he’s pushing the boundaries and probably has heard your older son using cunt so thinks this is the way to push your buttons. And it worked.

I’d be giving him a chore but something you do with him (my DD and I usually find ourselves cleaning out the car). Means he does something that helps the family, learns that if he can’t live nicely with others his tone isn’t his own but also gives you 1:1 time with him focussed on a task together which helps rebuild the relationship.

At the moment you keep upping the ante, so he knows to push and push - work on your relationship with him instead. Btw I don’t think later bedtime is a privilege to be earned, if he needs to sleep he needs to sleep so I wouldn’t negotiate a later bedtime knowing he’s going to be more dysregulated due to lack of sleep. I’d have a conversation with him about how much sleep he needs and how he’ll get appropriate rest if he’s up too late. I do also sometimes let my DD be up late and just suffer the consequences of sleep deprivation the next day - they need to learn their own sleep tolerance levels.

Reward, reward reward good behaviour. My dd was difficult when she was younger. Rewards worked much better than punishments.

The more we took away, the more defiant she became and the whole cycle was fairly grim.

I would do smaller punishments, e.g remove screens for an hour or so.

But reward the good. He’s been good for 5 days was it? Massive reward for that.

It sounds like ADHD to me OP. Some of the posters on here have been horrible to you. If his friend is living in the conditions you have described then I don't see it as a great stretch to think he's learnt that word from there either. That being said it's awful he's using it to you, I would absolutely lose the plot.

I do think his bedtime sounds a little early- especially given it is the summer holidays. If he was getting up at 7 for school then fair enough but unless you all have very early starts then 8 is a bit early.

I think you have done the right thing taking away his stuff. Do you spend one to one time with him? I would get him out running/jogging with me on his own or even helping with cooking etc. Praise is the way forward. I don't agree with ignoring the swearing either like other posters- that to me is just passive and scared parenting. You need to come down hard on the bad stuff and go overboard on the good stuff- as well as one of you spending one on one time with him. I'd also be cutting down the contact with his friend. I think the bedtime is also too early and can understand why he is fed up with it.

OP I don’t think you have gone OTT. Sounds like it was a really unpleasant incident that upset you all and he should be punished for it.

Also, I knew what you meant by mentioning his friend. You weren’t blaming the friend at all, just explaining how he might have heard that word. And if you hadn’t , someone on here would have suggested he’d heard it at home!

But I think now is the time for some calm and loving discussions. He needs to understand how his behaviour upsets you because you love him. And that we don’t say nasty things to people who love us..so can he think about what made him do that? If it happened again what can he do differently? Reinforce that he will get his things back because you love him and want him to be happy but it will be at the end of the week like you said.

But my GOD did he kick off then. Big time, absolutely hell tantrums, destroying his room and ended up being asleep way later than the later bedtime would have been!

So you need to pick your battles - if you know the fight will end up with him being up later anyway, I’d negotiate the bedtime. In terms of wrecking his room - when it all calmed down he’d be tidying up the room with me - natural consequences are the way to go here.

And if you hadn’t , someone on here would have suggested he’d heard it at home!

The OP herself said he older son knows it so yes it’s wholly likely he’s heard it at home. The joy of older siblings.

To clarify, did you misjudge your youngest child's naptime yesterday and so want to keep him up until 9 while the 9-year-old had to go to bed at 8?

I know that at that age I'd have considered it a great injustice to be sent to bed earlier than a much younger sibling - even if my parent thought there was a good reason for it. I'd definitely have seen that as being treated like a baby and probably felt unwanted.

Obviously it doesn't excuse swearing and tantrums, but it might help to try to look at it from a 9-year-old's perspective, which isn't the same as an adult one.

There are quite a few issues here I think.

Does he have any lovely friends? Children who are great? Or does he find the worst dc to be friends with where you don’t approve of the lax parenting? Who else is his friend? If he doesn’t have “nice” friends, why not?

I think this behaviour control policy of yours isn’t done by any firm of consensus. He gets expensive treats and then they are taken away. It’s all or nothing. Showered with gifts for no apparent reason and then they go. With no school, enforcing 8 is a bit early. Do you negotiate anything with him or just tell him? He needs to learn to regulate his behaviour himself. Not just be instructed by you. You need to talk to him about doing this and punishment rarely brings about change as kids just get angrier and angrier. An angry teen will be ultra hard work!

Keep him away from his younger sibling if he splashes water at him. How and where does he do this? Ask him why he does this? Most of what he does Is to get a reaction from you and he succeeds and it spirals firmware’s from there. I think you, as a family, need to talk to him and meet some of his requests.

I might also try and get family Therapy. He’s not easy but I think you all could benefit from talking through parenting style.

There are several things to unpick here.

First, honest congratulations on picking a sanction and sticking to it. I know a lot of parents who wobble and give in easily so I do think you are trying your hardest.

However, a week might be too long, even if ds did understand. The actual reality of a week is a very long time. We prefer the 'loose it for a day' option first and if said behaviour continues, additional days get added. I agree with those who say about not removing the bike though as it is an excellent way to burn off a lot of energy.

in our house 9 o clock is a late bedtime for a 9 year old on a regular basis but I do appreciate everyone has their own feelings about bedtime. Ours tend to go up to bed and read for a while so the younger 3 'go to bed' at 8 but will read for a little while. It gives them some down time to relax before sleep and helps them regulate their own sleeping time - they all fall asleep at different times and only the eldest, 12, is still awake at 9. We are a no tv in the bedroom house though.

It is finding something that works for you and your family so while I wouldn't dismiss a later bedtime out of hand, I might consider it for weekends and special occasions instead of a daily occurrence.

How long have school been concerned about adhd behaviours? As a parent of 2 adhd children, I can assure you schools don't say things like this lightly. We had a hell of a battle to get our eldest son diagnosed when we knew there was something going on with him. Conversely, we did not expect the same diagnosis for dd2.

Rising early is something I have experience with. Once your son is asleep, does he stay asleep? Ds1 takes ages to fall asleep and would be up 20-30 times in a night. Then be up at dawn as well. Melatonin was a game changer for us. He now goes to sleep better, sleeps though the night better. Although he is still up early. We got this from the paediatrician when he was a toddler as his sleep was utterly insane.

Secondly, you sound like you care about your son's friend so I'd try not to stop your son from seeing him if they are otherwise good together, but do as you would with any other child - I still boundaries in your home - don't tolerate poor language from anyone in your house, visitor or not.

Third. Explain to your son that sometimes baby will go to bed a little later. It doesn't mean that he has done anything wrong but baby isn't ready for sleep yet because they napped late. He has the capacity to understand if it is explained to him, rather than him seeing that baby stays up while he goes to bed. If you can, use bedtime to spend some time with your son. Read, play a game. Reassure him that he is loved too.

So my advice. Support the school in wanting to assess your son. If it turns out he has adhd, it will go a long way to explaining a lot of things for you.

Discuss the boundaries and sanctions with him, and make them relevant. Especially if, as you say, he's not usually good and you feel like you are constantly firefighting to accomplish anything. A phone for a 9 year old isn't, IMO, necessary but is useful. So it's one of the first sanctions I'd go to for poor choices, especially if they are on it a lot. My 8yo's have our old phones without SIM card so I'm not adverse to the idea. But it is one of the first privileges to go for poor behaviour.

Spend a good amount of time outside every day with your son, even if he can just ride his bike up and down. We noticed a drastic improvement in ds1's behaviour when he spends time outside running around, on a trampoline or on his bike. It helps him regulate himself.

Dd2 (adhd) is the one who acts like an overdramatic teen with her 'woe is me, no one likes me, everyone hates me, I wish I wasn't here' theatrics. Honestly I have to swallow the giggle because it does make everything worse. But it's a reflection of how a child feels and shouldn't be dismissed easily. A lot of it will boil down to attention. Your son has had 8 years of being the youngest and his position in the family has been usurped. Babies need a lot of time and attention so he now isn't getting what he had before. Try and build some time into your day which is just for him, even if it is just 15 minutes. It makes a huge difference to your son. If you're not a single parent, get your partner to deal with baby for that time. Better still both of you give your son some time independently. Your eldest can help out too with your ds, giving him some attention every now and then or giving baby some attention so you can play with your middle child.

I know with everything else going on in a busy home, it's not easy to give 1:1 time all the time, but even some of the time is better than nothing at all, or overcompensating with big gifts - a phone is a big gift with a big responsibility. And if you've paid £100 for a second hand bike, I suspect there is an element of responsibility there. As well as being a 'responsible big brother'.

It's ok to tell your child you think you might have been too harsh with all those sanctions so you've decided he can have his bike back. Let him know it was the behaviour you didn't like - separate it from him eg I didn't like that word, it wasn't nice when you trashed your room' 'we don't like it when you do x but we still love you'.

And hang in there!

Oops! Spirals downwards from there....

Oh, and 8-9 years was about the worst ds1 was since being a toddler.

Use visuals to help show him how good he is being. It might sound babyish and it might only work a few times (dd2,8, does not do stickers!) but a chart rewarding positives which he can see was great for ds1. He knew it was x number of stickers until a small reward, building up to the big thing he really wanted, which didn't have to be anything more than being allowed an hour on the x box instead of half an hour, or choosing the tv programme that night etc. For your ds you could use something like that to work towards a later bedtime at weekends.

I know it's school holidays now but for us we have to maintain a semblance of routine throughout. So bedtimes are broadly the same, bath nights are the same. Getting dressed is non-negotiable on week days etc. Routine and consistency are key to helping you get through this.