'Cancel' culture

[Megatron]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53330105

Forgetting anyone's opinions on JKR, (I know they are pretty mixed on here) as she is only one of many, many public figures who have signed this, what are your feelings on 'cancel' culture?

I recently came off Twitter because I'm sick to death with many innocuous posts being dissected, taken out of context, unpicked and twisted etc resulting in baying mobs declaring that that particular person is now cancelled.

No debate, no discussion, just cancelled.

Active discussion seems to be almost discouraged sometimes and hoards of people seem to have one giant toddler tantrum and declare that someone is finished, done, cancelled.

Surely, that isn't a good thing?

I agree op, it the cancellers seem to have got the upper hand.

It just seems that people are unable to discuss or debate anything anymore.

'What do you mean you don't like cheese? Fuck you - cancelled!'.

I'm being facetious obviously, but it seems that if someone is unable to put their point across in an intelligent and cohesive manner then the next step is to stamp their feet and scream 'cancelled' on social media etc.

I couldn't agree more and have said as much on here a few times only to have it justified by multiple posters. Most won't come right out and say "Cancel Culture is great!" But on individual threads about specific matters there's a lot of talk of how it's perfectly fine to report people to their work and/or "call them out!" and a few have actually said they think CC to be a positive thing. I imagine those who say that to be very young and have blue hair and unaware that CC will come calling for all of us eventually.

I think for some, they really enjoy having power on line that they don't have in real life. It feels really good to them to tell people off, catch them out, shame them, express disgust at not particularly controversial views and they get addicted to that feeling.

Sorry to sound daft but I've only heard the term 'cancel culture' for the first time today. I'm not on Twitter! Is it a case of a group of people deciding to ignore someone because they disagree with them?

Yes and campaigning to get everyone else to as well. So they contact their employers, go on every thread or platform they're on and disrupt their threads and discussion. If they're famous or have a voice they get them de-platformed so they're not allowed to speak at universities or conferences etc. Much more but that's the gist.

@Bobbybobbins I’ve just heard about it too. Sounds to me like you get ‘cancelled’ if you don’t have the same view as the majority of twitter trolls. Celebrities are being ‘cancelled’ left right and centre for having an opinion of their own

@YgritteSnow

I couldn't agree more and have said as much on here a few times only to have it justified by multiple posters. Most won't come right out and say "Cancel Culture is great!" But on individual threads about specific matters there's a lot of talk of how it's perfectly fine to report people to their work and/or "call them out!" and a few have actually said they think CC to be a positive thing. I imagine those who say that to be very young and have blue hair and unaware that CC will come calling for all of us eventually.

I think for some, they really enjoy having power on line that they don't have in real life. It feels really good to them to tell people off, catch them out, shame them, express disgust at not particularly controversial views and they get addicted to that feeling.

Absolutely.

I remember posting something about everyone being 'called out' last year because it seemed every other post had someone calling for someone else to be 'called out' for something or other.

To be clear, of course people need to speak up and of course there are some people who absolutely must be held to account i.e. Weinstein, Epstein, R Kelly just as examples. I don't mean at all that people like this should be allowed to go on their merry way without any recourse, but it seems like it's now the slightest disagreement between people (not actual crimes or suspected criminal behaviour) is picked up and then rather than trying to discuss, some (sometimes very influential people with millions of followers) call upon their followers to 'cancel' that person. It's a form of bullying IMO and I often feel that's an overused term, but I think it applies here.

Like you say in your final paragraph Ygritte, there seem to be legions of people desperate to catch people out and shame them. Comments are taken out of context and exaggerated and it's getting ridiculous.

There’s also the “offence archaeology” where people sift through years-worth of old tweets, articles, books, interviews etc in the hope of finding that “gotcha” phrase to condemn someone with. Often something is taken completely out of context or relevant parts of a sentence omitted. The baying mob never look at sources for themselves, they just pile on in agreement.

Agreed Irma. No mistakes are allowed to be made and no second chances are to be given.

Yes it's a type of fascism I think.

I agree. It feels like cyber-bullying.

I also agree with the trolling through the past to look for sticks to beat people with.

I really admire JKR for standing up to the trolls, even though I don't agree with her comments.

I think it's pretty harsh to judge someone from a tweet they posted/shared a decade ago. People aren't allowed to be young and stupid anymore.

I dread to think of the things I posted on social media as a teenager, there are bound to be a few posts that wouldn't be considered PC or acceptable now but were classed as ok a decade ago. I'd be mortified if people thought I still held those views as an adult and it got me sacked from my job.

I see micro versions of the same knee jerk censorship on MN when people are so quick to say block or delete people over singular instances, even LTB becomes an exercise in piling on. There are obviously things that shouldn't be tolerated, but this often feels like an inability to accept failings on others, to discuss and reach understanding or compromise. We all have failings. I think we all hope for compassion but often can't show it to others. It must have a massive societal mental health burden too, as I imagine these people are as harsh on themselves as other people, and those who don't get a chance to answer their critics also suffer.

Yeah but Megatron you once said that you think puppies and kittens should die so obviously I can't listen to anything else you say. I've no idea if you actually said that or not but I once saw a tweet that said someone you know had retweeted someone who said that and you liked it so that's the same as you saying it.

Bigot.

Yes and campaigning to get everyone else to as well. So they contact their employers, go on every thread or platform they're on and disrupt their threads and discussion

A radio broadcaster on he Isle of Man lost his job for saying “all lives matter”.

@DickKerrLadies that's exactly it - people don't know they just pile on don't they. (I promise I love puppies and kittens 😊) It's also the deliberate 'misunderstandings' and taking comments completely out of context to egg others on too.

Reckon they’re gonna cancel everyone til there’s no one left to cancel. I think people have forgotten you can have an opinion without sharing it on the internet.
I’ve seen people ripping books and destroying clothes and make up - would they have bothered without the internet or would they have realised you can separate the creator from the product and quietly keep using it?

I saw someone (say, John Smith) had said in an article something along the lines of, “If I were to say, “I hate kittens”, that would make me a kittenist..” and this had been shared as “John Smith said in 1987 “I hate kittens” !!”

The trouble is once you have been accused of being an “ist” all you have is defence, which immediately makes people think there’s no smoke without fire.

I'm not blaming celebrities at all for having not foreseen this, but it's proving very effectively that social media is a double-edged sword.

A lot of celebrities have really keyed into SM engagement as a way of bolstering their fan bases and securing themselves endorsements and even secondary businesses based on their social media presence.

Reese Witherspoon has a clothing brand, Paltrow and her ridiculous candles, the Kardashians, Chrissy Teigen - many, many people whose primary talent has been almost overtaken in the eyes of the public by their influencer status.

But that position and relationship with advertisers puts them in the position of being directly accessible by fans - and opponents. Twitter has a long memory, because it's the collective memory of a thousand idiots.

You can't just make a daft statement that becomes tomorrow's chip paper and you quietly duck out of the public eye and resurface when it's died down. Your harshest critics have your entire work catalogue at their disposal, and your public statements that can retrospectively be branded toxic. Cancelled.

It leaves no room for the nuance in which people forgive and forget. I mean, fuck me, if my relationship with my husband were a Twitter feed which could be searched, replayed and dragged to reignite old arguments, we wouldn't last five minutes!

It's a process which amplifies the extremities of arguments, and entirely leaves out the natural human behaviour of mellowing, pacifying and cooling down debates that usually occur in person.

I wouldn't be a celebrity on Twitter for all the tea in China.

Scary times

Or, here’s an idea, all of us out there with the ability to reason could just ignore ‘cancel morons. Who gives a shit?

That's a fair point @Loveinatimeofcovid, but if it was me being 'cancelled' I would definitely care. Particularly if it was just some twat taking something that I may or may not have said (they often don't check the content or context before jumping on the bandwagon) causing me to lose my job or contacts etc. It's hardly the worst thing in the world right now but I still think it's a shit way to behave.

Yes, someone taking issue with you on MN... well, that can be a bit upsetting, but if people know where you work and tell your employer that you are, say, ageist, because you mentioned a “nasty old lady” in Sainsbury’s, then I can see why we are all afraid.

Dh was just going through his company’s anti-bullying and discrimination policies, and apparently someone can claim they are being bullied if they read something on an upsetting subject written by a fellow employee on social media. So presumably posting something like “Vegans are hypocrites” could land you in hot water if Jane from Marketing is offended and reports you.

There was a time when debate meant people who had differing viewpoints explaining their reasons for them and trying to persuade others to their view, by use of reasoned and reasonable argument that was never a personal attack.

Everything is so polarised now that if you’re not with someone, you’re agin them. No middle ground, no open mindedness, no possibility of changing your mind. It’s very depressing.

I think the biggest issue we have at the minute is that critical thinking has become a dying art. It's why there's such a rush to ban for example fascist / Neo Nazi groups and we all applaud but then it ripples through to much more nuanced conversations about for example transgenderism. These are conversations which need to happen but people are wary of defending free speech wholesale because they are worried that Neo Nazis gain huge traction in a population who just can't think and dissect things for themselves. You only have to look at Brexit...

The bit I found most depressing was that one of the signers, a trans activist, has stepped back from the letter because she doesn't approve of all the other people who signed What a spectacular missing of the point. Free speech is free speech. It's okay to not agree with everyone or be agreed with by everyone.

And if I see one more dickhead on Twitter telling their timeline to check they aren't still accidentally following JK Rowling my head may pop off