D = fn + (p x 0) then AD = - fn - (p x 0)

[LadyOfTheImprovisedBath]

New Thread. - Hello.

And I'd add – also totally unnecessary medically.

I wouldn't, because that is not my argument.

My argument is that there is no medical justification for indefinite suspension of basic human rights.

If this was a disease as dangerous as the bubonic plague, we wouldn't need to be confined by law.

A pandemic response should be taken in a rights context, an ethical one, not a medical one.

If "First do no harm" had been applied here, we would not have deliberately caused harm to institute lockdown.

DH was at police briefings before lockdown about how they expected a decrease in drunken fighting but an increase in domestic violence. It was well known that locking down would cause the death and injury of women and children. But it was decided that "the science" justified their sacrifice.

I'm really intrigued by the theories and ideas on this whole thing by the experts. I find it very interesting. Thanks for those articles.

And for the help on the BBC one which was taxing my brain last night!

This is the thing isn't it, were always learning in medicine. We realise now a lot of what we did in the past was wrong, unnecessary, useless and even harmful. I think this will be the same. We'll look back in a couple of years and realise it was a complete and total over reaction. But the government will probably deem it a huge success and gloss over the impending mental health crisis, rise is unemployment and suicide, and substantial rise in "other" non covid deaths.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

This is the thing isn't it, were always learning in medicine. We realise now a lot of what we did in the past was wrong, unnecessary, useless and even harmful. I think this will be the same. We'll look back in a couple of years and realise it was a complete and total over reaction. But the government will probably deem it a huge success and gloss over the impending mental health crisis, rise is unemployment and suicide, and substantial rise in "other" non covid deaths.

I don't think we'll ever tot up the true toll of it. A suicide now will eventually go to inquest and lockdown may be cited, but that could easily emerge in 2021. It's not a fast process at the best of times.

What about the 13 year old now spiralling into depression that pays the price in a few years becausr they never feel like they socially caught up. Or the person losing their business and financial security then limps on for a few more rough years. The addictions that go out of control then prematurely ruin long term health.

They've set up a temporary field hospital on a racecourse near the locked-down towers.

Our ACTUAL hospitals have 7 patients in ICU with Covid. 7 people in TOTAL across ALL ICUs, across a state of 6 million. With lots of hospitals.

And ICU capacity was vastly increased during the previous lockdown, in accordance with the stated purpose of that lockdown.

But we desperately need a field hospital assembled under the gaze of the media to accommodate the plague-ridden from the towers.

Where else would they go?

We've just been told here that if we don't LOCKDOWN at midnight tonight for another 6 weeks, the modelers have predicted 3000 POSITIVE SWABS PER DAY.

It's all utter bullshit.

I have had a lovely day today though - a beautiful sunny Melbourne winter's day. Glorious.

And a little bit frightening.

Nihiloxica I love your posts.

That's true @BogRollBOGOF all those people matter too.

I'm sick of the "only covid matters" attitude.

I often have to remind myself that those of us who believe ourselves to be free thinkers are just as manipulated as those we may feel are unquestioning followers.

The manipulators need the free thinkers either
(a) to know which gaps need plugging
(b) because progress is necessary

One of my favourite novellas is Profession’ by Asimov

[http://dh.canterbury.ac.nz/engl206/tag/asimov/?print=print-search]

the modelers have predicted 3000 POSITIVE SWABS PER DAY.

So what?

What does 3000 positive swabs mean?

How many of those people will even have any symptoms?

Who are these "modellers" that are reading the future?

It's all a bit witch doctor.

Particularly if you know anyone who gets paid to do computer modelling.

Saw this and thought it was quite apt

Yes, interesting, Worldgonecrazy.

I'll have a look at the Asimov.

Funnily enough, I keep returning to this essay at the moment.

climatechangedispatch.com/politicized-science-dangerous/

The Crichton essay is hosted on a climate change skeptical website. I've linked this one, because it's the most complete version of the essay I could find.

@skeptile

Nihiloxica I love your posts.

Back atcha

Glad you found us.

@skeptile
That’s outrageous.
Utterly heartbreaking.
I feel for you, me , all of us doing our best to cope with this shit.

An article from the BBC about education

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53319615

Has anyone else seen the news today with the latest 'development' from WHO announcing they 'think' the virus 'might' be airborne after all? Bet it's used as a backdoor way to justify forcing us all to wear masks . I don't go out much anyway other than a targeted (and therefore quick!) visit to a supermarket for essentials but compulsory mask wearing would certainly stop me going anywhere else!

They should never have closed the schools. Absolute scandal of our time.

Did anyone see Celebrity Gogglebox last night (don't judge)

Susannah Reid was on it, with Judge Rinder. She gets on my wick at the best of times but she was a complete arse about her Covid risk. Could she tickle the dog ("Am I allowed to touch dogs? You can get it form cats").

And then later "I'm not touching the remote, I've already touched the dog. I might get Covid from it, you do it"

Seriously. How intelligent people have sat down and submitted to being told if they're "allowed" to touch a flipping dog. and getting Covid from a remote controller. Really, Susannah? Really????

@skeptile. Thank you, that was an interesting read.

Really, Susannah? Really????

No.

Susanna Reid is really fucking smart.

Smart enough to know what gets you asked onto Celebrity Gogglebox, and that's not being calm and non-hysterical.

Camp overreaction is the order of the day. Unless you are handsome and male (and Jamie Dornan).

I don't know if I have a link as such - evidence based policy has been something everyone in politics has been talking about since (at least) the Blair government, and it's not often that people ask the key questions, "Who is providing this evidence?", and "What aspects of the impacts of the policy does the evidence cover?" Oh, they might be written down somewhere on a civil service report. But in reality, that's not the bit anyone's reading.

I've been concerned about evidence based policy as a threat to freedom for quite sometime now. Because, taken to extremes, why should we have freedom? If we'd all be healthier eating government provided balanced meals, for instance, then wouldn't the "evidence based" thing be to give us those and not let us have any other options?

To be clear, I'm not arguing that policy makers shouldn't consider evidence. I'm arguing that they shouldn't base policy solely off what a group of experts (who may not be experts in other areas that will be impacted) say.

Something else to peruse

"Update on Join the Legal Challenge to the UK Govt Lockdown

Disappointed beyond measure to let you know that we have received the High Court ruling and the Judge has disallowed our case - essentially this means we have no recourse to the law.

We have published the full decision on the website. Please do read through this as you will see just how lightly and with complete disdain the Judiciary have dismissed the enormous amount of evidence we provided.

We are currently considering an Appeal.

I want to say a personal and very heartfelt thank you to all of you. It has meant the world to stand alongside so many people who believe like I do that Britain should remain a free country.

We will continue the fight - either in Court of via other means. Please do consider signing up to www.keepbritainfree.com

We may have lost this battle but the war is very much just beginning."

Thank you, Dowser. I'm usually very cheerful.

It's the 'shock and awe' propaganda here. It's very fatiguing.

Fortunately, I'm married to a complete anarchist.

We get on very well.

I will never forgive this government for what they've done to my kids. (And I hold a grudge - I never voted for Ed Balls on Strictly because of some shit he did when in charge of Education)

DD1, who I suspect might be on the autism spectrum but masks well and is very high functioning if she is - could not deal with me in the role of teacher at all - she functions well in school, if school is school and home is home (she can cope with homework because that's a fairly rigid expectation). It just destroyed our relationship - she would lash out - kick the shit outta me and her sister (because of course me as mum was the enforcer of it all) and refuse to do even the short bursts of online stuff school had insisted on. We struggled on for weeks until I emailed school just to warn them she was becoming violent so they were aware in case it continued to be an issue if they ever got back. I had the head on the phone within 10 minutes to say bring her in and we'll fit her in when we can just to give you some distance - and then when they expanded provision slightly offering us a place just because she was a child struggling.

She's done OK - she's developed a massive interest in science and the human body and picking holes in statistics and guidance and working out what's wrong with silly news headlines about deaths continuing to rise ("well they can't come back when they're dead unless they're zombies mummy") and she's missing her friends and there's far too much gone online with her social life too young - but she's coped OK.

DD2 - still no eye appointment to work out what she can actually SEE anymore - she's struggling to read school books, academically has regressed a lot, speech is still very dysfunctional compared to what it was... and mentally she's not the child she once was - she's somewhat better since she got back into school but she's gone from a child with SN just about holding her own academically with peers - to a child with SN near the bottom of the class - because of the lost time and I don't think she'll make that lost ground up.

School have done what they can - I've had a lot of dialogue with the current class teacher and the future class teacher as she transitions across schools - but that's mainly been because the new class teacher currently teaches the other child and because I've pushed and chased to make sure the progress we HAVE made hasn't been lost. I don't know how much speech fluency she'll get back though. She really has lost a lot of her future as a result of the fucking mishandling of this situation and I'm angry about it.

I was actually pro lockdown to start with - I felt we needed the short sharp measure to buy time to get the NHS into a mode where it could deal with it - and then control the flow of cases... like we were initially sold it as. I was not pro-this hell, especially as knowledge about the virus has increased, lessons have been learnt and the NHS has coped.

[quote Worldgonecrazy]I often have to remind myself that those of us who believe ourselves to be free thinkers are just as manipulated as those we may feel are unquestioning followers.

The manipulators need the free thinkers either
(a) to know which gaps need plugging
(b) because progress is necessary

One of my favourite novellas is Profession’ by Asimov

[http://dh.canterbury.ac.nz/engl206/tag/asimov/?print=print-search][/quote]
Which is why totallian regimes such as China tend to hit the problem of sustainability when you have to balance loyalty to the State Think, but allow enough free thinking to not stagnate like North Korea, but without compromising The Party.

They don't exist without secret police and strict social control censorship.

I don't think that's our government's agenda, more that its slipped into a rabbit warren of populist conformism. The masses are surprisingly happy with this and raise hell when you try to restore freedom. A rhetoric has been created of battling this virus, saving the NHS and the masses don't want to hear "fuck that, let's get back to normal" so we trudge on with the limitatations imposed earlier on in the game when we knew less. The government enjoy the masses policing themselves and carry on with their own agendas.

Ultimately this government wants money and will want to win a 2024 election which it won't if the economy is still fucked. Staunch left wing nanny state worries me more for wanting to increase and maintain state influence on the individual.