Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

The basic building blocks were better forty years ago, for sure. The cost of buying a house was lower relative to wages. State provided housing was easier to access. Private rented housing was secure and the cost of it was regulated. Public transport costs and utility costs were also regulated. Water was available for a nugatory amount. There was no council tax/son of poll tax - there were rates - again, nugatory compared to council tax bills. So fixed outgoings were predictable and controlled.

Similarly income was more predictable - more permanent employment, no two year wait for it to be secure, collective bargaining structure for wages, final salary pensions that were protected and didn't vanish when the company did etc.

It was easier to make coherent, sensible decisions about household spending etc without the need to continually review as the wind blows and therefore with less chance of running up debt.

If you are working in a full-time job (even more so if there are two of you), then you ought to be earning enough to cover the basics without worrying about rent, food, heating, clothing. This is where we go wrong in this country. To pay your way is an enormous morale boost and falling back on UC should be a temporary crutch. If you want luxuries and extras then that is the impetus to take responsibility for your situation. We need to be a country of opportunities, not one of slap downs.

Complaints about poor people buying coffee, I just don't get it, they should have enough money to buy a coffee at work, how is that extravagant?

It's just an example of the rise of costs in things that used to be relatively a lot cheaper. If you're buying a 4 pound coffee every day at work that's 80 pound of your wages gone a month just on one drink.

Therefore it's economical to buy a jar of coffee instead and maybe once a week at work buy one from one of the chains. The point I made was a lot of furloughed workers will realise how much they're saving and change their habbits, but the economy is reliant on people spending all their wages on these things.

Isn’t that the basic economic Impact though
You give a “poor” person £1 and they spend it (I don’t mean frittering it away) but give a wealthy person £1 they save it.
So the economy is boosted far more by the boost at “bottom”

And I hate my terminology there but couldn’t think of better words.

I just don't get it, they should have enough money to buy a coffee at work, how is that extravagant?

A take away coffee is extravagant. When I started work I brought my own coffee in a flask because I couldn't justify the money. There is absolutely no need to buy expensive coffee

Yeah well I made my own coffee out of squirrel shit and parsnips so frankly I don't need lecturing by any of you carte dor dilettantes.

Yeah well I made my own coffee out of squirrel shit and parsnips so frankly I don't need lecturing by any of you carte dor dilettantes.

I've just frightened the cat howling at this 😂

I think it’s housing that’s primarily the issue

If chickens had gone up the same as housing it would be £50 for a chicken!

No you don,t have to buy takes away coffee and if you do this every day no wonder your poor.

I think there is the need to have things now where there didn,t used to be. You see people saying just moved into the flat no tv anyone gifting one. Well it,s not an essential is it but it,s an example of how we used to go without.

Also the mum begging on a train, are you sure she wan,t part of a gang. There are Romany gangs that use children. The gangs can make quite a lot of money and are not necessarily poor and they operate all over Europe. (I am not being racist there maybe gangs from other communities as well but there are known ones from Romany backgrounds.)

Because wealth inequality is a prerequisite of capitalism.

Tbh I have heard the "how can they be poor if they've got a telly?" rhetoric and variations on it for at least 40 years - I am 50 and it was a common plaint even when I was at junior school. We live in first wave industrial revolution economy that is now 30 years into a technological revolution so yes the stuff we have in our living spaces has changed during the course of two generations and is different from living areas in late industrial economies. Maybe there were people questioning the existence of poverty 80 years ago because lots of houses had floors rather than dirt by that point? I dunno but I can't see the point in this type of comment.

Because of a lack of political will to change the status quo.

Because of systems with big cracks that people fall down through no fault of their own.

Because the nhs isnt good enough. People are sick and cant work and waiting lists are long or treatments arent available.

Because too many absent fathers dont pay.

Because its easier to believe that we are all responsible for our lives than try and address the amount of abuse, systematic sexism, racism, ableism and any other isms you can tjink of. Its easier to think of people on benefits as scroungers whose situation is of their own making rather than acknowleding that priveledge and luck as well as hard work is the cause of your personal success.

Because of a lack of long-term planning and investment in infrastructure.

It all comes down to lack of political will.

I find it hard to square away what you’re saying op as I grew up in relative poverty and have experienced it since and I would say generally things are a bit better now for those at the bottom in the UK. I can’t understand how your parents would generally have money for “plenty nights out” etc on the wages you describe. Many on my family had similar jobs and had to economise. My family was single parent and we scraped by. Things definitely were not better in the past- you have rose tinted glasses on I think.

Also I have extended family in other European countries and poverty is so much worse in so many countries there, as is social mobility. We don’t actually have it that bad in the UK compared to many places.

I originally come from Mexico. Another country with vast inequality. I don't hunk that for a rich country the UK has a high index of poverty.

When I first moved here I thought, wow first world country, even if you work at McDonald's you should have some quality of life. That's obviously not the case. Life is very expensive here in comparison to average salaries.

Oddly enough I'd have a better quality of life in Mexico but so it goes.

People have kids they can't afford and spending all their money on booze, cigarettes and scratchcards

Also op - you must be much older than me as I saw plenty begging in the UK growing up and I’m middle aged. I think partially culture changes are to blame for more beggars though (as well as substance abuse and less of a safety net). That and organized gangs.

You see people saying just moved into the flat no tv anyone gifting one. Well it,s not an essential is it but it,s an example of how we used to go without.

It's not just 'got a TV and TV license' it's 'gotta have Netflix and Amazon Prime, gotta have Now TV or Sky, gotta have a DVD player and pay for DVDs or buy shows to stream. These are all expenses just to watch TV. Back in the not too distant past you'd have a TV that had BBC and ITV and that was your lot. In the 80s that expanded to channel 4.

There's so many added costs than from previous generations just from advances in technology (broadband/games consoles/smart phones).

It's the fact people see a lot of things as essentials rather than luxuries, so in their mind they've got no money for luxuries because their disposable income has gone on their smart phone, broadband, gym membership and Sky.

I don't remember begging being much of a thing when I was growing up either. The lady 10 years suddenly it's everywhere.

I went for a very early run before a winter wedding in Winchester last year and was shocked and horrified at how many people seemed to be sleeping in the street. That place is practically paved in money.

I don't understand why people say that people are poor because of cigarettes and alcohol. 50 years ago my nan lived in a big house with her 3 children - one of whom was disabled - as a single parent who worked in a chip shop after her husband ran off. She smoked, and whilst they were 'poor' she never had to worry about how to feed her children, she could always provide the basic necessities.
A single parent today would likely be put into a small overcrowded property, wouldn't be able to rely on their parents for childcare because their parents would probably still have to work themselves, not that working in a chip shop would earn you very much, and would not get as much as support for their disabled child because of huge cuts to services. I know single parents today who have had to borrow money to buy a £1 bag of iceland nuggets for their childrens dinner because they had nothing else to feed them - they certainly don't have the spare money to fund a 20 cigarettes a day smoking habit like my nan could.

Wages are too low and the cost of living is too high.

Other European countries subsidise families so much more:

In Germany child benefit is 300 euros a month
Childcare is means-tested and for most people less than 100/month for full-time care
Schools offer childcare during all the holidays so parents can keep working

Those three things alone would massively improve things for a lot of families.

Oh also there is very good rent control and tenants have a lot of rights, so a level of stability closer to what owners have.

Speaking about people in my own family, having children you can't afford and expecting the council to deal with it, whilst wanting the latest iPhone/clothes

There were only about 50 food banks in the UK ten years ago, today there are more than 2,000

By comparison, there are only 1300 McDonalds in the UK

Point of note: Netflix is cheaper than a TV licence. And all television services are now digital.