Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

QueenOfWinterfell

I agree.
Also we shouldn't be comparing life now to Victorian times. Although if we go back 40 years, life for the poor did look better, this is shameful.

@OneRingToRuleThemAll

I think we have a debt problem in the UK rather than a poverty problem. People are buying things they don't need with money they don't have and then wondering why they can't afford the basics when all of their income goes to servicing the debt.

Yes, poor money management and decision making totally play a part.

It doesn't. Not even by developed world standards. The bigger question is why does it have so many unhealthy people.

Not being able to afford to have your school friends round for tea is the one that jumped out at me. Having no outdoor space to play in. No internet at home for schoolwork. Not being able to have a pet, days out or holidays. Being excluded from normal British life because of money.

I had a "have to watch every penny" childhood and it's stressful.

My friend lost her job due to lockdown and she's getting £74 a week. I've no idea how I would manage on that. Will the mobile phone and gym companies etc let you cancel the contracts? How long will the mortgage company give you before they move for repossession?

People always bring up absolute poverty but it's comparing apples with oranges isn't it?

The woman begging was actually on a train in France, so not a third world country at all. No where near it. Walking up and down the carriages begging people for loose change. No I dont see that the same as going to the local food bank. That I see more as asking you neighbours for some eggs or sugar for the week because you've had an unexpected bill suddenly. Its degrading and embarrassing but not begging.

There are obviously problems with the management of the country which penalises those worse off (as I said benefit cuts but also the lack of social housing and the ending of low social housing rents), woman taking the brunt of the difficulties, but a nurse or teacher using the food bank - again mismanagement of money most likely. I mean I know they arent well paid but clearly not poverty levels. Plus lack of support network. When I was on full benefits there were times i struggled and had only £20 to feed me and dd for the week (we ate a lot of pasta and toast at those times!) But I also knew I had my parents around me who would feed us a decent meal. That is what the food bank is to a lot of people - like the parents they can't/wont as for help

Obviously not poor compared to most but there's a high cost of living due to the property market with rent and mortgages. Wages have stagnated heavily since 2008 but house prices have still soared.

Also luxuries are treated as essentials (smart phones, holidays, broadband, Sky/BT TV packages and/or Netflix/Amazon Prime, expensive trainers and shoes/clothes, cosmetics which has become an industry of its own, nights out, daily/weekly bottles of wine, dining out regularly rather than occasionally as a treat, £4 coffees every day with a side order of a bagel or cake).

Our culture has become very expensive compared to how it was in, say, the 70s. Even something like the cost of a football match.

In my opinion, there is an over reliance on benefits and sadly a culture of laziness and blame rather than a striving to better yourself by learning and pushing yourself.

I don’t think that’s fair tbh. I grew up in poverty. No food in the cupboard, couldn’t afford shoes, electricity cut off levels of poverty. It is absolutely grinding, all consuming misery.

I managed, with a high school education and a low paying job to buy a small flat in a rough part of town, things were tight but we managed. Social mobility was easier - less of a gap between rich and poor, and it was much more possible to buy a property on a fairly basic income, the buy to let market was in its infancy and hadn’t pushed property prices, and rentals, through the roof. If you got a job it was possible to lift yourself out of poverty.

That’s not how it is now, I see my friends children needing tens of thousands in a deposit, and a strong salary to service the mortgage. Yes people want their holidays and clothes etc but the basic cost of living is so disproportionate to the minimum wage, for example. And let’s be honest the current situation has shown the benefits system for the farce that it is - if it was remotely fit for purpose there would have been no reason to create a whole system to support folk affected by COVID.

People are poor because those with want to blame those without - because that’s much easier than thinking they might need to give up some of what they have to even up the playing field.

I've seen plenty of women begging, including on the tube.
As for food banks I don't think they existed before 10 years ago. I don't remember seeing a single beggar in my working class northern city growing up, I remember in my early twenties being shocked seeing people begging in the USA because I'd never seen that before in the UK. Loads of people are begging now. I know someone will come along in a minute saying beggars are mostly fake, all earn £200 a day and have flash cars. That's not what I see though. It used to be all the same faces from the soup kitchen I'd see begging in the very comfortable middle class city I live near now.

Wages are too low. The wage division in this country is obscene. There should be a rule limiting the multiple by which an organisation's highest salary can exceed its lowest salary. I'm talking about CEOs whose annual remuneration runs into the millions, where the lowest paid employees are on the minimum wage.

When wages are so low there is little incentive for people to come off benefits - this stretches the benefits budget so there isn't enough to support people in need.

The wealth divide means that home ownership is out of reach for many, so they carry on making others richer by paying rent. Council accommodation is scarce so funds are being spewed on housing benefit to cover private rental costs.

The NHS is underfunded meaning people don't get treatment for mental and physical health problems, so that's more people having to exist on benefits.

Education is underfunded, widening the gap between the affluent who can afford private education or a house in a well-off area where schools can benefit from parental donation.

It's shocking but I doubt it will change in my lifetime.

Also luxuries are treated as essentials (smart phones, holidays, broadband, Sky/BT TV packages and/or Netflix/Amazon Prime, expensive trainers and shoes/clothes, cosmetics which has become an industry of its own, nights out, daily/weekly bottles of wine, dining out regularly rather than occasionally as a treat, £4 coffees every day with a side order of a bagel or cake).

When I think of the families I know living in poverty, they aren’t doing any of that. Smartphone on pay as you go because they need access for day to day living, but they aren’t going on holiday, frequenting Starbucks or buying Charlotte Tilsbury. They’re scraping together enough to feed their kids, wondering how to buy school shoes - or deciding not to bother because trainers are more practical - they don’t have money for resources for homeschooling (a local school has been giving jotters and pencils knowing some families can’t afford them), homes with minimal furniture and no heating.

In those circumstances digging your way out is monumental - the impact on mental health, the degree to which you have little control over your own future and the levels of stigmatism which reduces your options in the job market - assuming you can find childcare, and pay for it.

There’s a whole world of - by anyone’s standard - poverty which most folk on Mumsnet know nothing about.

People are poor because those with want to blame those without - because that’s much easier than thinking they might need to give up some of what they have to even up the playing field.

Ultimately working for a living should pay and benefits purely a safety net.

I think under New Labour for example work did pay for the majority for the first time in a long time, but benefits were perceived to be too generous and there was a big backlash against 'scroungers' led by the Tory papers who wanted to discredit Labour with cherry picked stories of feckless idiots.

Then after the repercussions of the 2008 crash and austerity from 2010 work suddenly didn't pay for a lot of workers. Wage stagnation, job insecurity, zero hour contracts, yet the cost of living has still only risen. However, they waged war on the benefit system which meant it was no longer a perceived easy life for people on benefits.

It seems to be all or nothing.

It isn't poor. It is one of world's richest countries - about sixth richest - google it.

smart phones, holidays, broadband,

Smart phones/broadband - happy to be corrected but I'm told it's almost impossible to claim Jobseeker's benefits unless you have internet access because they expect you to log in every five minutes to update them with your job searches.

@Jellycatspyjamas

Also luxuries are treated as essentials (smart phones, holidays, broadband, Sky/BT TV packages and/or Netflix/Amazon Prime, expensive trainers and shoes/clothes, cosmetics which has become an industry of its own, nights out, daily/weekly bottles of wine, dining out regularly rather than occasionally as a treat, £4 coffees every day with a side order of a bagel or cake).

When I think of the families I know living in poverty, they aren’t doing any of that. Smartphone on pay as you go because they need access for day to day living, but they aren’t going on holiday, frequenting Starbucks or buying Charlotte Tilsbury. They’re scraping together enough to feed their kids, wondering how to buy school shoes - or deciding not to bother because trainers are more practical - they don’t have money for resources for homeschooling (a local school has been giving jotters and pencils knowing some families can’t afford them), homes with minimal furniture and no heating.

In those circumstances digging your way out is monumental - the impact on mental health, the degree to which you have little control over your own future and the levels of stigmatism which reduces your options in the job market - assuming you can find childcare, and pay for it.

There’s a whole world of - by anyone’s standard - poverty which most folk on Mumsnet know nothing about.

For sure there is a lot of pure poverty for reasons that have been touched on.

I made the point that our culture is very expensive. Obviously if you're skint you're skint but there'll be a lot of fairly low paid furloughed workers who even on 80% pay have more money in their pocket at the end of the month because the pubs and bars, restaurants, coffee shops, football grounds and cinemeas/theatres etc are shut. That's before touching on foreign holidays.

As a society we treat luxuries as essentials. The reality is though our economy runs on cheap credit. It needs people to be skint because it needs them consuming all their wages to keep the economy going.

'Poor' is relative.

What we call poor in the UK would not be called poor in most developing countries. Being poor in a Brazilian city for example is unimaginable in the UK. Unfortunately 'poor' is a politized term. It is often used for the 'poorest' percentage of people in a society, so will only define those who just have less than others, not actual dirt-poor poor. Having less than others is NOT poor. Not having reliable clean water, or a roof or access to medical support is poor.

@tara66

It isn't poor. It is one of world's richest countries - about sixth richest - google it.

Actually the uk is 27th for mean gdp per head and this does not take into account levels of inequality www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

@Pelleas

smart phones, holidays, broadband,

Smart phones/broadband - happy to be corrected but I'm told it's almost impossible to claim Jobseeker's benefits unless you have internet access because they expect you to log in every five minutes to update them with your job searches.

That's part of my underlying point that the kind of thing that used to be luxuries are often essential now, or considered essential.

Things like gym memberships, broadband and mobile phones quickly eat away at your income if your on a low wage.

As others have said it's structural problems masked by benefit top ups rather than addressing the structural problems that would mean benefit top ups aren't necessary.

Eg the UK has a high cost of living in terms of housing, transport and childcare.

Simultaneously there is consistent downward pressure on incomes through casualised labour and erosion of collective bargaining and pension rights. To some extent this has become so embedded that there is now an element of circularity - eg as a pp mentioned pension loss contributes to speculation in housing which in turn drives up housing costs. And rather than addressing this we have allowed housing costs to spiral, chucked a bit of money at it for renters (housing benefit) and buyers (eg help to buy) but not done anything to address the central issue of costs, so there is now a significant pool of people unable to access decent housing that they can afford.

Similarly with wages, problems associated with the gig economy and zero and short hours working mean that there is now a significant pool of people whose household income is erratic, insecure and below even the nmw. But we've addressed that with income top ups and nothing more - the nightmare that is universal credit itself was designed solely because existing top ups weren't responsive to repeated short term changes in income. I mean, we actually constructed an an entire benefit system overhaul just because people don't have consistent or sufficient wages. Like, it's taken for granted that this is the case and all we can do is hand out money.

Both of these and similar are short term approaches that while they may alleviate temporary hardship to some degree do little to address structural inequality because this requires structural change.

For all the posters comparing us, in the sixth richest country in the world (as a pp pointed out) to developing countries level of poverty and insisting we don't have poor people here, are we not allowed to complain if people can't feed their kids because they're not poor compared to India?

Although if we go back 40 years, life for the poor did look better, this is shameful.

Seriously? do you actually believe that?

Seriously? confused do you actually believe that?

Yes, I lived it. I see worse poverty today.

Ken Dodd like you, I grew up poor in a Northern working class town in the 80s and it was a far easier life than being poor is now. If you had a even a low skilled job you had a regular income that covered your expenses and enough for clothes and nights out. Rent in private and council property was reasonable and didn’t need guarantors and three references. Schools were rarely oversubscribed unless they were known locally as an outstanding school. When you had a job you weren’t worrying constantly that you might lose it. In short, there was a feeling of security that has completely gone now and if you wanted to ‘better yourself’ it could be done with hard work and determination. Now it’s very, very difficult to improve your circumstances through education or hard work which gives people a feeling of helplessness and despair. That’s all happened in the last 15 years.

@KenDodd

Seriously? confused do you actually believe that?

Yes, I lived it. I see worse poverty today.

I think it's down to the cost of living today and the explosion of the consumerist society since the 70s in particular.

In many ways things were bleaker in the 70s but housing was far more affordable and you could keep your outgoings down a lot easier without going without things that we consider essential. There was no internet (no broadband), no games consoles and expensive games to go with them, no Netflix, no Satellite TV - you had BBC or ITV and that was it. You could go to the pub and buy a pint for far less in relative terms, same with going to a football match or just going to the coffee shop.

Homelessness has been far worse in recent years than it was in the 70s, so poverty in the purest sense has only increased.

And when my parents had jobs (part time cleaner and van driver) we had money. We could do more than just pay the rent and feed and cloth ourselves. We could go on holiday, have consumer goods, my parents had loads of nights out, we didn't just scrape by. This spare money they had was also all spent in the local economy so supported local hairdressers, cafes and pubs etc. Poor people with more money is surely a good thing because they spend it all. Complaints about poor people buying coffee, I just don't get it, they should have enough money to buy a coffee at work, how is that extravagant? Plus more people who can afford to buy coffee is more business for coffee shops.