Does going to university make you middle class?

[PrincessGraceKelly]

I feel a bit nervous about starting this discussion () as I know threads on social class can get a bit heated but I find it all fascinating from a sociological perspective.

When I was studying A-levels one of our tutors told the class that graduating from university makes you middle class.

Do you agree?

I don't think that going to university makes you a different social class per se, however I have found that going to university has changed me a lot, more than I expected it to. I grew up working class. We were on benefits, lived in a council house, entitled to free school meals, etc. I went to a secondary school where getting good grades was something to be embarrassed about and even considering revising for your GCSEs meant you were a geek. However I did revise and went on to university. I have been studying at university for the last five years. I did my undergraduate degree, followed by a master's and now a PhD. When I first started at university I found it very daunting and definitely experienced a bit of a culture shock. Nearly everyone in my halls of residence had been to private school and seemed to know each other already because of going to the same school or indirectly e.g. a friend of a friend. However I soon settled in and adjusted and my confidence grew. Now I never really think about it when with my peers.

What has become different now? Is it because university is much more accessible to the working class and they can't be allowed to rise above their stations? Or is it because lots of people now go to university and study less traditional subjects such that going to university is no longer an achievement?

All of the above, except for the less traditional subjects and the ‘can’t be allowed to rise above their stations’.

I went to university in 1989. Far fewer people went then. Having a degree actually bought you a discernible advantage in life then: it was the hallmark of being clever, if you’d managed to get there from a working class background. Fewer people competing for higher status graduate jobs, hence a distinct social advantage. Plus, the majority of people at the good universities back then were middle class, man6mof whom were privately educated. Amongst them, you could not help but acquire at least a veneer of middle classness.

People like me still go to university, but all of the universities are bigger now. Mine is now, I think, four times the size. The ex-polytechnics are now universities. At least 50% of people now go to university. Some are full of people from the same backgrounds: no poshos to mix with. What chance do those kids have of learning the middle class shibboleths? None. Plus, degrees are now ten a penny.

I don’t have a solution but that’s the answer to your question.

Only someone being wilfully blind to socioeconomics could really think that needing to work to earn a living makes you working class. Because really, all those working-class cabinet ministers and QCs?

I use this argument regularly to burst the balloons of reverse snobs (“I work, so I am working class”). So I am in whole-hearted agreement.

man6mof whom should have read, many of whom!

I don't think it is only university that makes you middle class but a combination of factors. What I think University does do is open up opportunities, job wise, which then unlock other things such as education for your children, larger houses, jobs that are seen as 'professional' etc.
I grew up in a middle class family. My mum (and subsequently still most of her siblings and their children) grew up in a middle class family. My dad was very much working class growing up (his dad was a coal miner and pub landlord). He studied hard, went to a grammar school, an RG Uni and had a good highly paid career. The rest of his family did not follow the same pathway and remain working class.
I on the other hand would class myself as working class, DPs family are working class too.
My overwhelming experience (friends and family), is that the 'class' is driven by the career of the male in the household (unfortunately). Where the man went to university, has a highly paid job etc, the household would be considered middle class. In my household, and several of my friends, although we went to university and have careers with good salaries, with parents and siblings who remain middle class, our partners do not and our households would be considered working class.
I hadn't really considered class before discovering Mumsnet, but it's been interesting to reflect on how things have changed over the years.

Did you study at a Russell Group university?
I think you can become middle class tbh and the way you speak/dress/where you shop/take holidays will be different now to what you would do before going to uni & meeting different people from those you grew up with.
Well done btw for getting to PHD level having been to a school where you were considered a geek if you revised.

My overwhelming experience (friends and family), is that the 'class' is driven by the career of the male in the household (unfortunately). Where the man went to university, has a highly paid job etc, the household would be considered middle class. In my household, and several of my friends, although we went to university and have careers with good salaries, with parents and siblings who remain middle class, our partners do not and our households would be considered working class.

That's so interesting and rings so true. It's weird, isn't it? I know lots of women who work in what might be seen as typical 'working class' jobs and that seems to be fine so long as they are married to Steve/Dave who has something that requires him to wear a suit to work. It's actually as if it's a badge of honour for the husband, that his wife can do a low-earning job.

How screwed up we are.

Don’t know. Just wondering what’s so terrible about being middle class 🤷‍♀️

For those saying they still "feel" working class, please could you expand on what you mean? Do you mean your values, hobbies, lifestyle, etc are "typically working class"? Or is it something more subtler that makes you identify yourself as working class?

@SarahAndQuack "What worries me about the idea that university makes you middle class is that it implies there are no more barriers. And that's not true. People who had advantages before they went to university still tend to have more advantages afterwards. People who got there against the odds, tend to have to work harder" - That is a very, very good point. Thank you for mentioning that.

@Craftycorvid I like the way you describe yourself as a hybrid as I think perhaps that is the way I feel too. I feel more middle class in terms of things like my lifestyle and values but at the same time and I definitely would feel more comfortable at a middle class party than in a pub but, as this thread has shown, growing up working class will always stay with me.

Not now! Going to university used to be prestigious but there's so many ridiculous, meaningless courses now that they aren't seen as great seats of learning.

Did you study at a Russell Group university?

Do you think that makes a difference?

I do find it interesting how some universities seem to have bragging rights attached. But do you really think most people know exactly which universities are in the RG, and exactly when they entered, with enough accuracy to use it as an index of snobbery? If so, people are nastier than I thought.

sarah I think most people know that some universities are better than others? Some are more heavily populated by ex private and boarding school students too. For example Warwick will probably have lots of 'middle class' students whereas Coventry Poly which probably isn't far away is less likely to attract the middle class lot.
I don't think it guarantees you a better paid job though.
Also salary doesn't always reflect class does it? A plumber probably earns double the salary of a teacher but the plumber would probably consider himself working class but the teacher would consider themselves middle class.

OP if we met you in person maybe it would appear you’ve (not in a desperate way, just in a natural way) “switched classes”?

I agree with pps that the degree/career path has an element of relevance, but it’s not necessarily automatic?

I know two men who were “first generation to go to uni.”

Both had parents who would solidly identify as working class (tradesmen). And definitely identified that way when younger.

They studied hard, traditional subjects at good unis (not Oxbridge and medicine/law but “solid” STEM subjects).

Went into military at officer level. So they had that experience of university socialising, then thrown into an environment where there’s an emphasis on “being refined”.

Hard-working blokes, eventually married to university graduates in professional jobs (maybe each brining home 50-70k in their 30’s).

So financially stable, well-educated, dress a certain way, not too “flash”.

I think due to the degree AND the “doing the traditional job path” they sort of moved in their thirties from working class to “middle class with a regional accent”? Their children will be middle class.

Alternatively, maybe they could have made a lot more money by graduating then putting their practical and numbers skills into buying and doing up property. But I don’t think they’d have necessarily been as middle class then?

(Class is a bag of made-up shite really but it does exist - I’m planning on moving abroad btw and I can’t wait )

@Iamthewombat But all of those factors you describe of being in the past all apply to my university experience. My cohort was largely middle class who had been privately educated. Yes it is easier to get to university now than the past but irrespective of that I still graduated top of my cohort for both undergrad and master's.

I guess I have made the mistake in this thread of not considering how diverse university experiences can be.

@afromom I hadn't really thought of it until Mumsnet either. I find it really interesting though.

@converseandjeans Yes and thank you. I do feel completely differently when I look at old photographs and videos of myself before university. How I speak is different, how I dress, what I eat, where I shop, how I spend my weekends.

Presumably he was referring to the fact that those with degrees would be much more likely to be working in jobs which would lead to categorisation in grades A-C1 in the social demographic class scale, ie. middle class.

Not sure this is any longer the case however, with low-value degrees being much more common.

I would struggle to describe a biochemist with a PhD as working class, if I’m honest.
Working class roots, absolutely.

Educating Rita is a fantastic film.

What I think is the best take on it (cheesy end scene ) is the fact that Rita’s education and new outlook on life gives her choices

It’s not like “automatic happiness” just because she has the certificate. She isn’t any financially better off, or desperate to turn into a corporate high flyer.

But just knowing that she doesn’t HAVE to be a hairdresser and have a baby young is what she’s gained.

But all of those factors you describe of being in the past all apply to my university experience. My cohort was largely middle class who had been privately educated.

That’s your experience and it was mine too, but you can see, I hope, that it’s not going to be the case for most kids from normal backgrounds going to eg Bolton or Crewe universities?

Yes it is easier to get to university now than the past but irrespective of that I still graduated top of my cohort for both undergrad and master's

With respect, what is the relevance of this? You asked whether the act of going to university assists class mobility. It used to, when it was possible for every undergraduate to observe how the middle classes behaved and assimilate some of the codes of conduct. Now, many can’t. One of my younger team members is 27. He studied business and accounting at Teesside university. He comes from a council estate in Hull. Did he have a chance of learning the ways of middle classness? Did he hell. Has it held him back in the profession (Finance)? Yes.

I came from a council estate in Manchester. I went to one of the top universities in England. Did I learn the middle class shibboleths? Yes, very quickly, because I was immersed in them daily.

Have a go at this www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973
It's quite old now, but still interesting to find out what "makes" you.
Turns out when I was renting, according to the BBC I was in the working class group, now I've bought a house, I'm in the middle class group, is it as easy as that?!

And yes, the experience of studying for and gaining three degrees will undoubtedly have changed you and removed you from the class you were born into.
It’s trendy for humanities students to claim to be working class (has been for decades since Pulp really) but the very act of being privileged enough to study lends the lie to the claim. Particularly for ten years or so. It does help you to get jobs if you can fake it well enough though

*I don’t really understand the class rules/levels tbh. I’m not English so it’s not really a thing I was brought up with or have heard discussed outside of MN.

I am English and I haven't a clue either. I wasn't aware that anyone still bothered with it until I joined MN.

@Iamthewombat

That’s genuinely interesting, about university (sometimes, in the past) being a place where you could genuinely learn from others who were quite different to you.

I wonder if the advent of social media/more financial pressure has changed that?

I suppose we’re all a combination of different social influences really (career/partner/family/education).

@Iamthewombat I only mentioned it because you said that previously having a degree "was the hallmark of being clever, if you’d managed to get there from a working class background" suggesting that being recognised as clever just for being a graduate was one of the factors that resulted in social advantage. Which suggests that because now it is easier to go to university, just going to university is no longer a good enough hallmark of being "clever" (which I do agree with). I was just indicating that I am not coming from the perspective of someone who expects the world to be at my feet just because I went to university, but that I am someone who did work hard and studied a decent subject at a decent university. I just wanted to make the distinction.

@pinkrocker

According to that I am an emergent service worker seems accurate as it says:
"Are young
Enjoy a cultured social life
Rent their home - almost 90%"

I mean I am a PhD student in my 20s surviving off a stipend so I cannot be financially secure just yet.

Yes, but coming top of your cohort is an accolade related to the quality of your cohort. Please don’t be offended: I’m sure that you are clever etc., but when fewer than 15% of 18 year olds went to university, employers knew that anybody who hadn’t been privately educated/hothoused and managed to get into a prestigious university was likely to be smart.

If you are studying history at Edge Hill, and you come top of your cohort, does that make you unusually clever compared to the rest of the kids your age? When 50% of them are going to ‘uni’ (cannot bear that contraction, but that’s now the common description).

Agree with darkforce

I would struggle to describe a biochemist with a PhD as working class, if I’m honest. Working class roots, absolutely

I do think the uni is relevant too. Some unis are just more middle class than others.

When my dad went in the 60s yes I think it gave you the opportunity to get a middle class life, buy a house, work in an office and buy a decent car. When I went in the 80s, less so and now even less.
My dad's degree made me middle class.