Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

OP is talking about a club, for girls, that has been single sex for four years, which she had reasonable expectation would remain so

How is this expectation reasonable, given that the club's policy states that men may be present?

Because it’s been like that for the four years she’s been going. It’s possible for all sorts of people to be at brownies when you turn up next week, but it’s fairly reasonable (as in likely) that Donald Trump won’t be there, a gnu wont be there, and there will be not be double the number of girls....any of which might have caused OP to ask questions as would any reasonably diligent mother.

Don’t be ridiculous WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Her dd isn’t phased by Irish-Karen’s. Stop trying to build a case and think about the child who this club is set up to nurture.

I'm not trying to build a case - I, along with most of the people on here, am attempting to demonstrate just how ridiculous the original groundless prejudice is - but it appears to be falling on stony ground.

Some people seem to find comfort in their prejudices and see it as just easier to make sweeping generalisations about men/black people/Gypsies/gays/foreigners, whatever - pick whichever one(s) you fancy - than to actually think logically and realise that these are just people too.

Suppose I said that we'd had a group of Travellers invade our school field for three weeks and then leave it piled high with filthy rubbish - so now I don't trust ALL travellling people/Irish people/anybody with a caravan, just to be on the safe side - and I would expect my child's school and clubs to warn me if anybody in one of these categories might actually be wanting to help and serve my child - would you be OK with that?

Traumatised children need our support to overcome trauma, sometimes that involves more than just expecting them to get on with it. Families need support to help them learn to trust again and they don’t need to be hounded for perceived or even genuine sexism because it solves nothing.

If OP had gone to her pack leader when her DD joined and said:

"My DD has been through a dreadful trauma involving a man. She struggles if she comes across a man unexpectedly in a female dominated space. Could you possibly inform me if you arrange an activity run by a man, or have a male volunteer starting, so I can prepare her in advance? Thanks", and they agreed, then she would have grounds for complaint when they turned up, Dave was there, and she hadn't been warned.

But nowhere has she said that she did this. So she can't expect the leaders to adapt to a trauma that they don't know that DD had. And nor can anyone else expect that.

That's my take on this saraclara

Well we don’t know what she’s shared with the leaders do we, she specifically said on page 7 some considerable time ago that her Dd did need a female space and I would imagine given it’s been four years she thought it would stay that way, she also stated

For clarity I don't assume Dave is a risk. In the first couple of pages, so unless we are assuming she’s a liar the situation really isn’t “see man and was terrified” and more, “saw male worker unexpectedly and thought shit this is going to impact Dd, why didn’t they tell us.”. But obviously that gets in the way of an opportunity to fly off on a hunt the sexist crusade.

@WeBuilt if you had enrolled your child in a football club and found that they were now playing hockey, or in a club for children who were carers for a sibling but other children were coming, would you say the same?

GG does not advertise itself as a club for white girls, British girls or any other group. It advertises itself as a club for all girls. It does not at all openly say that it has male volunteers, it's not hidden in the way that I'd argue the lack of safeguarding around men who identify as women is hidden, but it's not advertised to every parent as they sign their girl up, in the way that, say, openness to disability is advertised (e.g. by asking families if their daughter has a disability). They also don't hide that there are under-18 volunteers but again it's not on the sign-up forms either.

It's perfectly reasonable to know who's leading the group and to be told when that changes. It's very simple for the leader to say "oh, we haven't had any male volunteers before, and they can't be group leaders, but we do have a new one for the next few weeks, his name is Dave" in the same way that they'd say "we haven't had any under 18 volunteers before, but we have Mary now doing her DofE with us, and we should let you know she won't be left alone with a group of girls."

The 'for clarity I don't assume Dave is a risk' doesn't really go with the asking whether he had a DBS, surely you would just ask who he was if you didn't think a male could be involved with the group.

Also if I had a DC who could be emotionally impacted by an unknown male I would have made that clear to anyone running a group they attended, as otherwise you are setting them up to fail. As stated above, in DS's scout group they regularly go to places where there may be other males there other than the leaders or have people come in, to show things or help run an activity eg tag rugby, we also have a parent rota and I assume Brownies would be the same.

Also if I had a DC who could be emotionally impacted by an unknown male I would have made that clear to anyone running a group they attended that’s brilliant what a superior parent you would be if you were the one negotiating this situation.,

As stated above, in DS's scout group they regularly go to places where there may be other males there other than the leaders or have people come in, to show things or help run an activity eg tag rugby, we also have a parent rota... that sounds lovely for him and for you but doesn’t sound like it would suit OPs Dd, which is presumably why she didn’t choose scouts?

But 5zeds I assume Brownies don't just sit in their hut doing craft every week, I assume they go out and about and have people in. I know our local Brownie group do. They may not be as outdoorsy as the scout group but they definitely don't stay in their hut without visits or visitors.

Are scouts more “outdoorsy than brownies”? No idea. Ones single sex and ones mixed, beyond that I have no idea what the difference is.

I'm an ex-brownie leader and we often went on trips out where there was male instructor/tour guide etc. Or we might have a man come in to demonstrate a particular skill or talk about something. Or we would do things like go to the local old people's home (where there are men as well as women). When I helped at a church unit we would occasionally get church people (e.g. the male vicar) popping in. The hall caretaker (man) would sometimes be around doing maintenance work. It would not have occurred to me to flag these male related activities in advance, unless I'd been made aware that this was a particular concern to an individual girl.

I actually think it's pretty unusual that OP's brownie unit has never had any activities where she's encountered a man in 4 years. I would think it more likely that they do occur from time to time in most brownie packs.

red irrelevant now but for regular visitors you should be getting a Guiding DBS. The caretaker for example can be seen by the girls as "one of the adults they can trust" but isn't DBSed by Guiding.

They weren't regular visitors Katie.

Except, I guess for the caretaker, but it would be hard to argue that he needed one on the basis that he opened the hall, closed the hall and occasionally needed to do some maintenance in the hall.

Leaving aside the trans issue - and I like many other Guiders have big issues with GGHQ's policy on this- Guiding has strict safeguarding rules about how adults interact with the girls. We all have to have an enhanced DBS, attend trainings and are never supposed to be alone with a girl.
There have been male unit helpers for years, although they can't be leaders. We have had lots of male visitors- from the vicar, the dog training team, wildlife expert etc etc. We haven't had a regular male unit helper in our unit, but the county treasurer was a leader's husband for many years.
There are very strict rules about males at residentials, separate sleeping, toilets, showers are only the start.
At several large scale camps I have been to, there has been a contingent of husbands/partners who have been on site , helping with activities, equipment and security, all police checked and with segregated facilities.

How can you leave aside the trans issue when there won’t be separate sleeping places, showers and toilets because the Girl Guides have said they treat trans women as actual women.
Purely on self identification, too.

I think the trans issue can be left aside in this thread as Dave was obviously a Dave, and that was the issue for the OP

Though he wasn’t obviously a helper or why would OP ask BO who he was?

*How can you leave aside the trans issue when there won’t be separate sleeping places, showers and toilets because the Girl Guides have said they treat trans women as actual women.
*Purely on self identification, too.

Because it has no relevance at all to the actual thread? 🤷🏻‍♀️

red I thought that was what you meant but a regular dropper-in-and-out like a caretaker can also be a chancer as it's an ideal opportunity to get to know children without oversight.
The Soham murders were by a caretaker - not teaching staff but still frequently seen by children and appearing to be safe to them. Partners of leaders, cleaners who always come in 10 minutes early, the 18 year old who helps a regular sports instructor but hasn't yet done their DBS, etc. etc. can all be risks.

I thought it was relevant that Dave could decide he’s actually Davinia tomorrow and will be treated as female immediately, even though he isn’t, because the Guiding Association allow this.
Sorry I didn’t allow you a veto on my opinion first, though, Tea
Slap on wrist for me.

I'm not violent

You are nosy, though.

Because it’s been like that for the four years she’s been going. It’s possible for all sorts of people to be at brownies when you turn up next week, but it’s fairly reasonable (as in likely) that Donald Trump won’t be there, a gnu wont be there, and there will be not be double the number of girls....any of which might have caused OP to ask questions as would any reasonably diligent mother

Are you being deliberately obtuse? If there was a policy stating that DT or a gnu might show up, and OP would not be happy in that instance, then OP's daughter ought not to attend the group. Y'know, rather than OP going 'Shit! A gnu!' when the local gnu innocently shows up.