Planning a half-term break at Center Parcs? Did you know their communal spa changing rooms are no longer single sex?

[Clymene]

You may have read a story in the papers in October last year where a transwoman called Vicky Hodges went to Center Parcs and wasn't allowed to use the communal women's changing rooms at the Aqua Sana spa but was directed to a private changing room instead. Vicky has not taken any hormones, does not have a GRC and is still a male-bodied person to all intents and purposes.

Article about Vicky and photo: www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

Vicky wasn't happy about this and on a thread in FWR confirmed this month that CP has said Vicky is absolutely welcome to walk through the women's communal changing areas and use one of the private changing cubicles (of which there are only 2 or 3).

This is Vicky's post:

"Just a quick update. I can confirm Vicky Hodges and Center Parcs had a very amicable conversation just before Christmas and the issue of changing room access for transgender customers was resolved. Center Parcs confirmed that they do have a private changing cubicle within the Aqua Sana, open plan, female changing room and that Vicky was more than welcome to use it and the changing room as she wishes to. Center Parcs also confirmed they are a fully inclusive organisation. I can also confirm that Vicky has now been to Center Parcs, used the changing room and she had a great weekend with her family.
How do I know all this? Well "GirlOnTheRoof" is Vicky Hodges... 💃🏻🙋🏻‍♀️"

and this is the thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3731052-Center-Parcs-upholding-single-sex-spaces?pg=3

so if you were planning to take your teenage daughter to the spa at half term, you might want to think again.

Tbh it wouldn't bother me

How about the average 14, 15, 16 year old girl? Do you think seeing male genitalia when they're in a state of undress, most likely with their older female relatives present too, would bother them. How would you feel at that age? You go to a spa with your Mum and some person with a wig and make up and fully intact male genitalia is wandering around in front of you and you're and you're forced to accept it? How do you think a teenage girl might feel about it. How about a conservative Muslim or other religious woman and her daughter might feel?

Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest either.

Nope, Vicky never answered that question.

@haveuheard - I don't think Haven have spas do they? But you're right, I won't be going anywhere near Center parcs while they let men into spaces where women and girls are likely to be naked.

And of course it's not just Vicky. Jake from year 12, who's doing it for a bet with his mate Ed, could also use the women's changing room now, as could Pervy Pete from down the road, or John who has recently been released from prison for filming women and girls under cubicle doors in a leisure centre changing village.

It's an open door policy!

Or my 15 year old dd.

1st world problem or what. Who can afford Centre Parks?😂

Not just about you though Sp11111ng. Someone might call you a great big walloping bellend for not caring about other women, wouldn't bother me but doesn't make it right or mean you have to like it. You see?

No I don’t see. Don’t like it, don’t go. More space for everybody else. The only time I went it was heaving.

Expensive holidays are a luxury not a right. Go somewhere else.

But, instead of arguing about which category of stranger can or can't get naked in front of each other - and we know that women can abuse children as well as men - why not just campaign for there to be cubicles everywhere rather than this whole private school communal nakedness thing? The idea that people pay the prices at places like Centre Parcs or David Lloyd and then have to get naked in front of strangers is bizarre. You would have expected the top price places to be well ahead in this and clearly they are miles behind.

It's funny isn't it? I support charities that are building single sex toilet and washing facilities for women in developing countries because women and girls get raped and assaulted when they share mixed sex facilities. Girls don't go to school when they have their period because they are embarrassed and ashamed of their menstruation.

And yet, in first world countries, some women are A-OK with sharing facilities. I wonder why that is? Is it because they think men in the developing world are more likely to rape and assault women than they are in the developed one? I really can't figure it out.

One thing I do know though is that is definitely not a first world problem.

98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men, it's a pretty stark statistic, not to mention the constant ogling and groping that never makes these statistics.

Lots of women do like open changing rooms, they are normal in private gyms, you've got more space, can get things out of your locker gradually instead of trying to move it all to a cubicle, and it's sociable, I often chat with other women at my gym.

I don't think decent men are particularly keen about changing around women and girls either, especially if they know it makes us feel uncomfortable.

And of course it's not just Vicky. Jake from year 12, who's doing it for a bet with his mate Ed, could also use the women's changing room now, as could Pervy Pete from down the road, or John who has recently been released from prison for filming women and girls under cubicle doors in a leisure centre changing village.

I think this is an unfounded concern. I don't see evidence of this happening in the large majority of places that allow people to choose their changing room by the gender they identify with.

How about the average 14, 15, 16 year old girl?

I work with teenagers. I find they are far more supportive of transgender people's rights than the older generation.

And yet, in first world countries, some women are A-OK with sharing facilities. I wonder why that is? Is it because they think men in the developing world are more likely to rape and assault women than they are in the developed one?

Yes, good point. Is it because people believe that men in developing countries are savages and the naice white men in this country never hurt women?

Yes, I’m going next week and haven’t booked the spa because of this.

No but because in this country you are highly unlikely to be raped or assaulted in shared spaces. Many of us have used shared spaces several times and know them to be completely safe.

I think this is an unfounded concern. I don't see evidence of this happening in the large majority of places that allow people to choose their changing room by the gender they identify with

Well then you mustn't watch any news then, because there are always stories of another blocked being charged with putting hidden cameras in the ladies (and that's often not even in unisex spaces, men have actually taken the risk to somehow get into single sex spaces undetected, so imagine how much easier that would be for them in a mixed sex space) etc and the data actually shows that sexual assaults are far more prevalent in unisex spaces.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Because that's what you are talking about here. When you say 'places that allow people to choose their changing room by the gender they identify with' you are talking about mixed sex spaces.

Many of us have used shared spaces several times and know them to be completely safe.

What, so because you have been in unisex spaces 'several times' and haven't been raped or assaulted, you deem them to be 'completely safe'?

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic here tbh?!

I don't think decent men are particularly keen about changing around women and girls either, especially if they know it makes us feel uncomfortable.

Vicky had a “lovely time” making people feel uncomfortable.

I also think teenagers/lots of women can and will be very supportive until faced with a real life penis. It’s suddenly a different kettle of fish then.

I have a friend that works in retail management of large complexes such as Westfield, Oracle & Bullring.

She NEVER uses a public toilet EVER if she can avoid it and when she does absolutely have to, she has a very thorough procedure of exactly what to look at and where to look for clues of cameras that have been placed illegally in cubicles.

Her inside knowledge from her role of 20 years+ is particularly worrying and I didn’t give this a second thought until we met and became friends.

What is the large majority of places that allow people to choose which communal changing room to use @Stompythedinosaur?

And I don't know a single teenager - male or female - who would be happy getting naked with someone of the opposite sex.

Mixed sex changing villages are rife with men sexually abusing women - either physically or filming them. Google it. It's a massive, massive problem

Shared use changing village at my local swimming pool. Numerous incidents of indecent exposure (witnessed it myself) filming under partitions.
Shared use changing area at a park local to me with lovely water feature. Told by staff not to let DD use it unattended because of pervy men.
My own personal experiences.

Also, teenagers have little life experience and trans is trendy right now.

Maybe they should teach about AGP in schools too. And how to spot hidden cameras placed by perverts.

#Ancientruin .
Can you get some information from your friend about what to look for in public toilets? The more people who do these checks the more likely the perpetrators will be found .

Do men not assault women in this country then?

Only 10% of rapists are strangers and only 3% of women were raped in the UK last year.

The chances of
a) anybody being able to afford CP is small
b) being trans and wealthy enough even smaller
c)said trans person even being in the spa smaller still
d) said trans person being a rapist and able to carry out an assault without intervention laughably minuscule

Scaremongering- again. Boring.😴

CPs (Centre Parcs Retweeted A Challenor's tweets about A Challenor's break at the Nottingham site, amid an investigation into safeguarding and despite concerned tweets from parents telling Centre Parcs how inappropriate that was).