How would you punish DD?

[Seasonalanxiety]

DD is 14. Yesterday she was supposed to meet friends in central London for the afternoon, shop, have dinner and be back at her friend's house for a sleepover by 9.30.

I am a strict parent according to DD. I still track her phone, check with parents if she's having a sleepover, remove devices at 10pm. Her friends are all lovely but seem less supervised which makes me anxious. They are all very privileged but seemingly have a lot more freedom than I allow DD. However DD has been very depressed recently due to other issues and had been self harming. These friends are kind, super supportive and have done wonders for her state of mind.

So this morning I check her tracker. She only got home at midnight! I'm furious about this but at least they were travelling in a big group (6 girls). However the worst thing is that they then went out again at 2.30 to the McDonalds at the end of the road whilst the mother slept on a different floor. They got home at 3.00am.
I'm so angry I don't know what to do with myself. DD has admitted it all, not lied or made excuses, apologised and said she knew it was a bad choice but she didn't want to be the only one not going. She's begging me not to tell friends mum.

I'm thinking no more sleepovers with friends and limiting her interactions with them as I need to keep her safe. However we've only just been confident enough in her mental health to return the sharp knives back to the kitchen and these girls are a big reason why. And they are nice girls. They have been kind and inclusive and they are clever and play sport and participate in life- they are just allowed more freedom than I'm comfortable with.

Dd upstairs sobbing. Please no one tell me to ban her from seeing them entirely until you've gone round your house removing all the sharp objects because your daughter is so miserable.

I just have no idea how to handle it.

I've made it clear how upset and angry I am. I've explained why. Now what?

Other mum and I discussed 10.00pm curfew and agreed. However apparently she flexed it until 12 without telling any of the other parents. Apparently I'm not the only slightly grumpy one but I agree they all needed to stay together. One poor girl had to be back on the other side of London for 9.00am class!!!

Dd didn't tell me about any of this - Life 360 shows where shes been and at what time and clearly shows McDonalds at 3.00 am!

I can't stop tracking her just yet. This isn't a normal situation with a normal teen. I did check with her just now and she's happy for it to stay. It's genuinely there for both of us to feel more secure after a particularly nightmarish year, but i have said I'd stop retrospectively checking up on her if i know she's safe.

In response to the people who have asked about counselling (for me!) the focus has all been on DD who is having trauma specific psychotherapy plus CBT to deal with the behaviours triggered by the terrible thing. My focus has all been on her but I'm beginning to think I might benefit from talking to someone. It's rare that there's a reasonably unanimous "you're unreasonable" on MN particularly on the thorny subject of child security and it has made me question how I'm (not) coping.

I agree that you sound very anxious about your daughter (not surprising given what's happened). Does it help to think of it this way:

• Is getting home at midnight objectively any more dangerous than getting home at 10pm? Not really. They were in a group, so pretty safe. OK, she did promise you to be home by 10, but as others have said it's pretty much impossible to make a bunch of your friends stop doing something just because your mum wouldn't like it...

• Similar with McD's - obviously 3am is very late, but does it actually get any more dangerous the later it is? Again, I don't really think it does. They were in a group, it was the end of the road.

Women have it drummed into them that it's dangerous to go out on your own after dark in case you get randomly attacked. The fact is, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be hurt by someone they know (probably a husband or boyfriend).

I hope the anxiety eases off for you soon.

It sounds like you've had a good discussion with her. Being able to talk to each other is more important that pretty much anything else.

Stopping retrospective checking sounds great, and will be a good way to help rebuild trust between you and hopefully help you reduce how much you worry about her (understandable though that is).

It sounds like her group of friends are really good for her and that will do so much for her mental health (and already has from what you've said).

Hopefully you are also reassured that you aren't the only parent a bit irritated with the change to curfew. You are right though that staying together is by far the most important thing.

OP I'm not sure that you're "not coping" at all.

You've had a very scary and overwhelming time with your dd, her being bullied and self harming and I think your response was out of terror and love and internalizing all of this to be strong and calm on the outside.

What can be hard, is stepping back a little as things get better, accepting that dd has grown in lots of ways and that you can ease off (this is true for ALL parents let alone without the self harm).

You might find that you not being on high alert means you then have a wobble from what you've been through, and you may benefit from talking to someone or you may not.

But coping you are

Thank you crotchetandshit.

What was the terrible thing that happened.
Understand if you don't want to share.

Kudos to you for taking the comments onboard. It's very difficult to set a new normal when you've through trauma.

I understand why you are upset, but honestly, all of them sneaking out to McDonalds in the night is, in my opinion, akin to having midnight feasts that my kids might have done. I think the biggest punishment for her is probably her worry that you're going to tell her friend's mother, and your daughter will feel responsible for getting everyone into trouble. In your position I'd just talk to her about why you were worried and how disappointed you are. And I wouldn't stop her having sleep ins in future. It sounds like your daughter needs her friends at the moment.

you never leave anyone by themselves, and that it's better for you to be late for curfew than to head off by yourself

Absolutely that. Sometimes really strict rules end up putting a teenager in more danger than they'd otherwise be in. "I can't stay out with you because I'll be in trouble - I have to go" leads to being alone and vulnerable.

But you sound like you have your head screwed on, OP, and it's good to read your updates. This group seem really good for her. They like her, support her, and these fun social events will be good for her confidence. So I think you're doing the right thing by not coming down hard on her/them.

OP this is a hard transitional time with so many variables that there is rarely one answer. When you have a child with mh problems and you have all been through some horrible experiences it’s harder still. We have had a similar situation and it rewrites some of the ways you would have thought you would have parented. Maybe for the better eventually

Stopping retrospective checking is a brilliant compromise OP, well done.

I think you are doing great by the way, this is all really hard!

Oh and if the other mum extended the curfew without checking with other mums then a) that is quite sneaky actually and b) would be almost impossible for any of the girls to argue or change. They've essentially been given permission and it would take a very strong member of the group to say 'I don't want this permission, can we go home now?' And to persuade the others to agree!

You need to know people very well and be very confident in the relationships to say this is actually a bit shit in real life, will we go home and watch Friends?

To be honest , she could've just left her phone at her friends house and wouldn't you have been none the wiser?! Be careful or she will start lying and hiding stuff from you.

I'm surprised the DM didn't hear them all trooping out at 230 am, I'd find that a bit strange. Fair enough a fun nighttime jaunt to McDonalds but could have been a lot more serious. I wouldn't be overly happy with that situation, but yes think your DD does not need a punishment.

@Seasonalanxiety

You’ve had a hard year, it’s no wonder you’re anxious 🌷

I would not be thrilled about DC(14) getting home at midnight in London, but she was staying elsewhere and the Mum said that was OK, so I’d sooner she stayed with the group & came home at midnight, then stuck to my curfew and went back to their house on her own (if she was even able to) and realistically those were her two choices weren’t they?!

As for McDonald's at 2:30 at the end of the street I guess it would depend which street, but if they all stuck together they’d be pretty safe. & they do sound like the care about her, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

In that instance she COULD have said, can you bring me back x - I can’t go as my Mum will hit the food & I won’t be allowed to sleep over next time 😕. But honestly, that’s not much fun is it?

She has come through an awful year too and now has some nice friends who seem to be GOOD friends so within reason I’d just be happy she’s found nice friends and not fallen in with a bad lot and I’d be trying not to cause issues.

She’s allowing you to track her, which is great, but you do need to do as you’ve said and not keep looking at it - only use it for it’s intended purpose. In an emergency!!

I do think you need to find some counselling for yourself, because otherwise you’re going to be a bag of nerves yourself! You also risk alienating/affecting DD if you can’t move 🌷forward.

I had thought I had flexed my boundaries as much as I was able. I wasn't loving her travelling back to her friends house in the dark at 10 on a Saturday night in central London but i sucked it up as there was a big group of them. Midnight is surely too late though for 14 year olds to be out?
And sneaking out at 2.30am because they were peckish is madness. It's not safe.

It was along the road from her friends house presumably her friend knows the area well - and it’s very exciting when you’re 14 to be out in the wee small hours of the morning. I can understand your anxiety but for me this falls into the realm of “safe” risk taking, and it’s such a normal part of human development for teenagers to take risks. It’s great that you’ve been able to have an open conversation about it - you sound like a lovely mum, concerned about your daughter and trying to navigate pretty choppy waters.

And I thought I was strict!!

Don't seek to punish her. Why do kids need punishing? Just tell her off, tell her why it's not on and tell her you don't expect her to do it again. Just a normal bollocking.

There's no need to hype it all up.

I agree with pp posters... Why the knee jerk to '' punish ''

At the end of the day a 14 year old should be aware its a nasty old world out there.
People spike drinks, lie.. Girls get attacked, boys get attacked... You can be safe but be street wise and safe....

If my dd did what yours did... Privately I'd be having kittens but to her I'd simply remind her to stick together, watch each others drinks... Walk away from argumentative drunks... Etc and I'd ask why they needed food at that time (munches).

But no punishment.
More explanation and clarity of dangers.

To be honest I'd rather my dd just kept me updated with text eg... Mum the group is going to macdonalds, I'm happy to go it's on blah high street. I'll text again when I'm back.

It's worth considering that it's probably far safer to be a kid travelling around London late at night in a big group where there are always lots of people about, Tube staff to ask for help, etc, than out in the sticks with crappy public transport connections and more risk of getting stuck. London teenagers also tend to be pretty streetwise because they're used to getting around independently, rather than being ferried everywhere in a car. I see why you're concerned but it sounds like these girls are good for your DD and you should cut her some slack and trust her judgement. Midnight's not horrendously late for a sleepover party and the McDonald's trip must've been fun!

I'm so glad your daughter is getting proper trauma therapy.

It wouldn't be surprising if you were affected by vicarious trauma, even from the little you've shared. Either way, exploring support for yourself isn't a bad thing.

Take care

I'd hate to the teenager who had to text mum every time any part of the plan changed. This is so beyond embarrassing that teens will chance lying rather than look like puppet-controlled automotom in front of their friends.

I actually think keeping tracker is reasonable as long as A) she consents & B) in return she doesn't have to msg and beg your permission to change the plan b/c you can see for yourself that the plan changed.

I don’t think she should be punished.

I think now she’s obviously feeling well (or better than she was) it might be time to loosen the apron strings. But with her.

Sit her down and say that you’re so glad she’s feeling better and that given what happened this weekend, maybe it’s time for you to give her a bit more flexibility and responsibility.

So long as she knows you will always always have her back if she feels out of her depth, and that you are proud that she didn’t lie and was completely candid about what happened, then you’re keeping those lines of communication open and reinforcing her trust in you and you in her, but giving her room to grow and mature.

Wow that’s a long sentence!

@seasonalanxity you sound a lot like me.

I would probably feel exactly the same if I were in your shoes.
As I'm removed from the situation I would advise you don't punish your DD, but also get her to download the what three word app so you can find her very easily if she ever needs you. Let her know you will drop everything and be there if she calls you.

I know it sounds scary and inappropriate that she was out so late, but she was with friends in a well lit area and nothing did happen.

I so would raise it with the other parent!

Parenting teens is tough and exhausting. I send mine off with a "make safe choices" instruction and all of them have mostly done so so far. They may not have been knitting by the fire at their friends house, but they neither have they been experimenting with drugs.

The punishment/consequences here is you keep tracking your DD (I don't do punishments, only consequences)

Oh OP, it sounds like you've had an awful time and I honestly can't imagine what it's like. I'm pretty anxious and catatrophise so I'm dreading DD getting old enough to be out with friends, but it's only a year or so away now.

Well done on the tracking compromise. I was going to suggest that exact thing. That you only use it if she goes missing again, not if she's out with friends. You definitely want her to keep her phone with her, not leave it on the bed at her friend's house.

I also agree with not leaving anyone behind. You stay together. I think your DD was possibly stuck between a rock and a hard place. Standing up to new friends, wanting to join in, worried she'd miss out on a Big Mac! Maybe there's a chat to be had that if she ever thinks she's not safe that she can call you, no questions asked? I also plan to chat to DD about being safe, keeping aware of your surroundings etc, trying to give her the skills when she is out to make the best decisions she can.

Wishing you a positive 2020 OP

There were 6 of them, sticking together.

I wouldn't like getting the last train home from London on a Saturday but they had safety in numbers.

2:30 maccy D run is a bit off if only because the parent in charge thought they were home. That's not fair on the parent.

I think you need to look at the risks with your daughter - you both need to learn the difference between perceived and real risk, mitigation and how to negate some risks down.

Going out on your own and coming home at midnight is not safe but in a group of 6 sober and sensible is a lot safer that coming home alone at 9:30.

What did you expect her to do and ask yourself honestly are they reasonable expectations?