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Help- cleaner drank my gin!

614 replies

kayde12 · 19/01/2020 10:48

Hi all,
I’m new to mumsnet, but would really love some advice!

I’ve just signed up to a cleaning company and had my first clean, which I was thrilled about.
Then I noticed that half of my bottle of pink drink has gone!
I only got the bottle given to me as a gift last week from my sister in law.
My Dh doesn’t drink and I have my two ds in the house.
It was the cleaner definitely!
The company have been awful at getting back to me and sent me a poor email saying she said she didn’t drink it Hmm and was too early in the morning.

I feel really gutted and not sure how to move forward or get some sort of justice!!

OP posts:
NoSauce · 26/01/2020 07:35

So many people join MN with a dramatic story I’ve noticed.

Anyway, OP fwiw I think you fucked up here.

notsodimwit · 26/01/2020 07:36

Haha! Kath...very VERY naive Grin

momtoboys · 29/01/2020 21:14

Oh, Kayde12, its a whole new world being the parent of boys. Believe me, I have 5, 3 of whom have been 13. You'll learn. Once you are a little more experienced in the teenage boy world, you'll look back on this indignation and laugh. Smile

shouldhavecalleditoatabix · 30/01/2020 21:18

Wow mn jury have voted and you have been judged OP!

FWIW I think it was the cleaner. Not because all cleaners are like this but because she is your prime suspect. I DGAF if it was the mayor in your house. If the evidence fits then you have to suspect someone.

As for being a piece of the puzzle you are absolutely correct. Consider police work. One person reports a 'suspicious male' hanging around. On its own it means nothing. The next person reports being approached by a strange male asking about school times. Together it's more relevant. The next person reports a car hanging around the school but not picking up kids. Slowly a picture is formed. Now it may be that the man is in fact considering a career in teaching or some such but you would not be flamed for trusting your judgement. That is exactly how police build up pictures of who is doing what. That is how suspicion is formed which is how evidence is eventually uncovered. Unfortunately evidence is rarely just left in plain view.

I don't understand the mob attack on here at all and if yours is the only complaint ever made about said cleaner then she absolutely will not have suffered. You haven't insisted on an enquiry. You haven't reported a theft to the police. You've simply cancelled her in your home and who cares!?

You're not batshit, mean, outrageous or any of the other quite frankly awful insults op. Enjoy the rest of your bottle of gin and ignore the haters. In fact, pour your DS and your teetotal DH a gin and you can all laugh about the strangeness that is the mob effect.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 21:26

if yours is the only complaint ever made about said cleaner then she absolutely will not have suffered.

But it's still there, and she can do nothing about it. A complaint that is possibly completely untrue.

Would you like to have something untrue in your file at work?

shouldhavecalleditoatabix · 30/01/2020 21:43

@mathanxiety

Would you like to have something untrue in your file at work?

In the job I do people make spurious and unfounded complaints regularly. The only ones that have any effect on me or my job would be ones that actually had some truth or evidence. Complaints are made all the time by all sorts of people for all sorts of reason. If there's no basis for it then the cleaner and her employer will not give it any more thought. It's not as though they've launched an investigation into it. I doubt there's any more than a brief record of the conversation....UNLESS there have been more complaints.

I would guess even you can see that people turning a blind eye because there's no proof' is the route cause of abuse and criminal activity all over the place. It's how criminals and con artists get away with stuff all the time. We don't call it out because it's 'not british' and people that are that way in inclined absolutely thrive on that. The problem with our communities is that we don't support the quiet voice trying to speak out. Now I don't know if op was right or wrong in her suspicions but I damn well don't think the absolute slaying she has had on here is fair or indeed something I can get on board with. She had a concern about an employee. She raised the issue. She moved on. It's not like she took an advert out in the local paper or slandered her all over Facebook. We should be applauding her for taking action and not just ignoring it.

As I say, if the cleaner did nothing wrong it harms nobody. And if she has been thieving stuff for the last fifteen years because 'nobody dare blame the cleaner without proof' then perhaps this will be a wake up call.

Raspberrytruffle · 30/01/2020 21:52

Um op at 12 /13 my brother would pinch any booze in the house no matter how old fashioned it was if it had alcohol on it , it was fair game. I was the same age that I started pinching booze . Grin

Poetryinaction · 30/01/2020 22:01

The 13 year old decanted it, planning to drink it but is too scared now and has given it to a friend.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 22:29

shouldhavecalleditoatabix

There is a difference between a complaint that is based on evidence and a complaint that is an unintended lie, and then there are malicious lies too. Sadly there is no way for the target of the complaint to get lies of any kind removed from her files. You seem to think this is a good thing, but why should an innocent individual have to live her life with that cloud hanging over her? The common law offers certain protections to individuals whether you like it or not. The presumption of innocence is the key to it all.

It is not a case of no harm, no foul if a complaint goes on someone's files. A reference might be needed one day. People shouldn't make complaints that might be unfounded. You express all sorts of blithe assumptions about this but maybe you don't know how the unskilled labour market works - cleaners are two a penny.

Just because there is a certain level of crime in general doesn't mean you can just phone up an agency and state categorically what might turn out to be a lie about a specific, possibly innocent, worker, when there is an element of doubt. The idea that the OP is holding the line in the fight against crime in general and deserves a clap on the back for speaking up is what we call grandiosity. Making accusations that are possibly groundless against individuals doesn't advance society or the cause of justice one inch. It merely chips away at the concept of fairness and individual rights on which the entire justice system is built - rights the OP enjoys and would hate to see infringed if the boot were on the other foot.

Being accused of theft is a serious matter. If it is serious enough to warrant a complaint, the complaint had better be based on evidence, not coincidence, or assumptions.

Just because the OP doesn't want to believe her DS was capable of taking the gin doesn't mean the element of doubt doesn't exist. Going ahead with the complaint regardless of the element of doubt is slander and it makes a mockery of the concept of justice, because evidence is actually really, really important in the justice system.

Not assumptions, or prejudice, or some past record as indicator of current behaviour.
Actual evidence, on which the justice system rightly relies.

I would guess even you can see that people turning a blind eye because there's no proof' is the route cause of abuse and criminal activity all over the place.
I completely disagree.
The proof requirement that you seem to think is some sort of problem is all that stands between us and lynch mobs (or an army of informants supplying tidbits to the police, something you seem to want, but is actually what happens in police states).

mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 22:31

Not assumptions, or prejudice, or some possibly dubious past record as indicator of current behaviour.

NumbersStation · 30/01/2020 22:37

My bully made false allegations about me. They are still on my file. I was investigated. They knew he lied. But they mishandled it all from the start. What should have been kept quiet until it was investigated was not.

To date it has cost me promotion, my name is known for all the wrong reasons and due to the seriousness of the allegations, I will be the first person the company will look at if there is a major incident in my area.

All because someone got the hump at me. He lost face - not gin. But trust me, that stuff sticks. I have fought for years to clear my name and am still fighting now.

I did nothing wrong but those allegations have damaged me hugely and I did nothing wrong. Nothing.

The OP doesn’t know the cleaner stole the gin. But said so anyway. And said so in the title of the post. No proof. Just a suspicion.

She could be right of course. But she could just as easily be wrong. Is it fair that the cleaner has been accused?

Granted it isn’t a malicious lie like my case. But it could be a mistaken allegation.Either way, it does stick. And it is soul destroying when you live under that cloud.

shouldhavecalleditoatabix · 30/01/2020 22:53

@mathanxiety I'd like to thank you for a reasoned and non offensive response. It's refreshing that we can have a conversation and even disagree without resorting to name calling or being offensive to each other.

To respond to you I agree we cannot accuse people outright without proof however I fundamentally disagree that people shouldn't speak up if they suspect something like this.

Don't get me wrong I don't think we need a vigilante society where a lynch mob hangs you without proof and I absolutely believe in our justice system, as flawed as it is because you are right. We live in a society where we 'police by consent'. We don't live in a police state and I don't want to.

However, and this may be because of my own work experience, an allegation is vastly different from evidence. All reports of wrongdoing start with an allegation and it is then up to the correct establishment (in this case the employer) to consider if an investigation is necessary. As I said before the OP hasn't indicated that she insisted on a full investigation but what would you have her do instead? Just forget about it? I understand you believe her kid could have done it but the OP absolutely does not. It is not for me or you to decide differently. And essentially a theft has occurred and OP decided to act on it. She has simply passed on information.

As for the complaint sitting on her file. I cannot say whether this would remain but I know with my own experience the only complaints that stay on file are ones where there is evidence or the complaint was upheld. And in those circumstances, say for example a written or verbal warning is issued, then they are removed from file after a set time. So assuming there has been no evidence and no other issues then the cleaner would not have long lasting repercussions. Let's say however that there have been some performance issues with said employee. Well then this complaint would assist in building a bigger picture.

Also, you quite rightly say there's a difference between a complaint and a malicious lie but the op hasn't been malicious and hasn't been unbalanced in her actions. She genuinely believes the cleaner did this. Just because you don't doesn't make that less true. She hasn't acted maliciously and I just don't think it's reasonable for people to tell her she's ruined the life of the cleaner and all the other insults thrown at her. She has a genuine belief. Not malicious intent.

Anyway, I thank you for the alternative view. I always welcome a well thought out argument to make me question my own belief. After all it's how we grow.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 22:55

THIS ^^ is exactly why people should not make accusations without solid evidence, and why evidence is crucial.

mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 22:55

(Refers to NumbersStation's post).

shouldhavecalleditoatabix · 30/01/2020 23:02

But in fairness that accusation was malicious. The OP hasn't done anything maliciously and hasn't insisted on an investigation....as far as I know

DecemberSnow · 30/01/2020 23:05
Grin
mathanxiety · 30/01/2020 23:47

I fundamentally disagree that people shouldn't speak up if they suspect something like this.
If an issue is serious enough to warrant a complaint then it's serious enough to require proof.

You are advocating a police state if you believe it's ok or a case of 'speaking up' if you applaud complaints based on suspicion or even genuine belief. You can't have it both ways. You either embrace the concept of the assumption of innocence and the importance of evidence or you veer into pitchfork territory.

what would you have her do instead? Just forget about it?
Yes. That is what she should have done. Better to err on the side of respect for someone's rights than to trample on them, because respect for people's rights is fundamental to a civilised and law-based society.

I understand you believe her kid could have done it but the OP absolutely does not.
The OP needs to understand that just because she 'believes' her DS couldn't or wouldn't have done it doesn't eliminate the element of doubt. She should not have proceed to make an accusation when there was an element of doubt. The cleaner was entitled to the benefit of that doubt.

It is not for me or you to decide differently.
It is up to the OP, not you or me, correct. She made the wrong decision here. Without solid evidence she decided it was the cleaner, and armed with her strong belief and circumstantial evidence, she acted.

And essentially a theft has occurred and OP decided to act on it. She has simply passed on information.
No, she hasn't passed on information.
A theft occurred. She jumped to a conclusion. She made an accusation.
An accusation without evidence is not information.

the op hasn't been malicious and hasn't been unbalanced in her actions. She genuinely believes the cleaner did this.
You can't make an accusation about as serious matter as theft based on genuine belief. You need actual evidence.

I cannot say whether this would remain but I know with my own experience the only complaints that stay on file are ones where there is evidence or the complaint was upheld.
How would they investigate this? Question the DS under caution?
Should they waste their time/money trying to investigate a complaint that had no solid evidence to back it up, just genuine belief, maybe a pinch of prejudice, maybe a soupçon of paranoia?
Cleaners are two a penny, and an agency isn't going to go to the expense or effort of investigating. They would be far more likely to fire her, maybe with indemnity issues at the back of their minds. Plenty more where she came from.

The cleaner's reputation for honesty and proper care with someone else's possessions and property is her stock in trade. Take away the honesty element and you are harming her. An accusation of dishonesty, especially one that could imply a drinking problem or habitual drunkenness could be very harmful indeed.

And you don't need much on file in order for an agency to put two and two together and make five.
Complaint of missing gin + a certain nationality or ethnicity can sometimes = wrong conclusion.

I experienced this myself when I was misdiagnosed as an alcoholic in denial by a doctor - because everyone knows what sots the Irish are, right?
Except some of us actually have gallstones, not cirrhosis or ulcers, and don't drink much at all.

shouldhavecalleditoatabix · 31/01/2020 00:54

You can't make an accusation about as serious matter as theft based on genuine belief. You need actual evidence.

This is ridiculous. You absolutely can make an accusation of theft. You can't be suggesting that we all become super sleuth and only ever say anything if we have proof. There are thousands of threads encouraging abused women to speak up even without proof. Criminals are very good at hiding evidence. We don't expect these women to shut up until they have solid evidence. We expect authorities and experts to step in.

How would they investigate this?

They may very well decide not to which is my point. It's only one piece of the puzzle as op has said. They may investigate if they have other reports of similar behaviour.

what would you have her do instead? Just forget about it?
Yes. That is what she should have done. Better to err on the side of respect for someone's rights than to trample on them, because respect for people's rights is fundamental to a civilised and law-based society.

If nobody ever made a complaint/accusation/enquiry/report without 'evidence' then we would never bring anyone to justice save for the most stupid or unfortunate. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Every thread where someone is being bullied at work where mn encourages them to report and keep a log. Every thread where someone is being harassed by their neighbour but have no evidence. The world doesn't work like that!

mathanxiety · 31/01/2020 05:09

You absolutely can make an accusation of theft. You can't be suggesting that we all become super sleuth and only ever say anything if we have proof.
This is precisely what I am saying, because an accusation of theft is a very serious matter, and we should all be confident that we can go about our business without fear that someone in the grips of paranoia or prejudice or an irrational and unreasonable belief in the saintliness of our teenage children, or someone who wants to get a promotion or discredit us for some reason would level an accusation of theft against us with no solid evidence, just a 'genuine belief' in our guilt.

The statement, "It's my opinion that that person is a thief," needs to be backed by evidence because it is an accusation of a crime.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of other people, but there is a difference between opinion and fact. What distinguishes a just accusation from an unjust one is that one is based on fact and the other could be based on literally anything else - any motivation, any prejudice, any irrational feeling.

There are thousands of threads encouraging abused women to speak up even without proof. We don't expect these women to shut up until they have solid evidence.
Women are urged to speak up in order to get help for themselves, yes.
Not necessarily in order to have someone prosecuted, though notifying the police of the crime is of course possible and reasonable and a DV victim is entitled to ask for police help and the help of the criminal and family courts.

We expect authorities and experts to step in.
DV of all kinds can be reported, investigated and prosecuted. It is sometimes very hard to prove, but in theory the accuser has a chance to present suitable evidence to back her case and like it or not, in civilised societies the accused has the chance to offer evidence to clear his name in a court of law.

Most of the time the accused gets off with a rap over the knuckles, but there are other avenues for a victim of DV to protect herself, all provided and supervised by the courts, whose duty it is to make sure that all parties' rights are upheld. Non-molestation orders and residency orders can be issued by the courts who exercise oversight, check that the situation is as the victim says it is, and give a chance to the accused to argue his case. Hearings are held in open court and decisions are a matter of public record.

The beauty of the justice system is the presumption of innocence, and the fact that the law is there to uphold everyone's rights. When you speak of little pieces contributing to a bigger picture you have lost sight of the presumption of innocence, and you also seem to believe and not question that the police are and should be keeping tabs on millions and millions of people.

Theft is a serious allegation. If the OP was so convinced the cleaner was the one who took the gin, why not notify the police? Instead of doing the honest and responsible thing, the OP chose the sly and unjust option of punishing the cleaner without trial, giving her no chance to clear her name - a report to the agency with no evidence, just coincidence to back her account. And then posted about her concern for justice. No, it was revenge, and there is a difference.

Criminals are very good at hiding evidence.
I don't think that is true. Most criminals are pretty stupid. The gin thief who didn't top up the bottle is a prime example of a stupid criminal. The internet is full of other examples.

Belief in the brilliance of criminals is not a justification for making accusations without evidence. A state where people feel they should offer mere opinions of others, not facts but what amounts to personal opinions, or express their opinions of others disguised as facts is well on the road to becoming a police state. In the UK a person officially accused of a crime still has the chance to defend him or herself, to offer the police and courts evidence to refute the accusation. A situation where someone can make a serious accusation without evidence and the accused must bear the burden of that accusation makes a mockery of the law. It's the opposite of what the law stands for.

If nobody ever made a complaint/accusation/enquiry/report without 'evidence' then we would never bring anyone to justice save for the most stupid or unfortunate.
You are advocating a general rush to the phones then. Anyone with an axe to grind, a score to settle - call the police.
And you are conflating an accusation made to an employer with a tip to the police - an accusation made to an employer is one the accused has no chance to defend herself against. Her rights are taken from her and she must live with the burden of the accusation. A tip passed on to the police gives accused and accuser alike the rights afforded to both under the law.

Every thread where someone is being bullied at work where mn encourages them to report and keep a log. Every thread where someone is being harassed by their neighbour but have no evidence.
None of that is the same as accusing someone of a crime, in the dark as it were, with no chance to defend herself.

The work bully may be dealt with by a manager or a HR officer and will have a chance to hear the accusation and defend himself against it.
And sorry, but accusing someone of harassing you when you have no evidence is also called harassing.

Making an accusation of a crime in private against a cleaner, which can never be investigated but which will hang over her is not the same at all as initiating a complaint that will be properly investigated, in due time and with proper procedures designed to guarantee the rights of all parties, with a chance offered to her to defend herself. She must carry the burden of the accusation, the burden of an unsupported opinion that someone else holds of her, with no chance to clear her name. This is unjust.

If the OP is so convinced that this cleaner stole her gin, why not call the police? Theft is a crime, no? Surely if we are interested in justice this is how the world should work?

mathanxiety · 31/01/2020 05:14

...the saintliness of their teenage children

Shev1996 · 31/01/2020 05:21

Ok I’m going Cluedo like with the owner, the gin, and the need to want attention...

Shev1996 · 31/01/2020 05:26

My guess is no cleaner, rich person or gin existed. But people do tend to respond to being wound up, so she/he won for a while

Shev1996 · 31/01/2020 05:30

@mathanxiety it’s clearly a joke and spam post, easy tiger

BubblyWater · 31/01/2020 06:00

I'd love a gin & tonic right now.

Littlewelshridinghood · 31/01/2020 06:12

I was pinching alcohol at 13 OP. Just saying.