David Baddiels comment about Corbyn

[Minionoftheantichrist]

I’ve looked for a thread about this but can’t see one.
David Baddiel picked up that on the leaders debate Corbyn pronounced Epstein in a way that made it sound more Jewish ie Epshteen as opposed to Epsteen. He said every Jew will have noticed this and that it’s another example of Corbyns antisemitism.

I’m Jewish. I’m no fan of Corbyn but really hadn’t noticed this and even now David Baddiel has pointed it out, am struggling to see this as an example of antisemitism. Am I missing something here? Is this antisemitic?

If it wasn't Corbyn, I'd think it was just an honest mistake (although I'd question why they hadn't heard it on the news loads) as it's Corbyn with his history and the problem of antisemitism in the party atm hmm

Nobody has implied any such thing.

It's just as well the kids at school aren't politically invested in interpreting my attempts at getting the pronunciation of their names correct as being abusive. They seem happy that I am at least trying.

But it's interesting how pronouncing a name incorrectly/correctly/nobody fucking agrees is portrayed as being worse than being a rapist and/or child molester.

When I read the name I pronounce it 'Epshteen' in my head ... actually more like 'Epsh-tyne'.
Does this make me anti-semitic

I don't understand why people are struggling with this.

A) There is no one correct pronunciation. If you've never heard it out loud, then you have no way of knowing which one Jeffrey Epstein used.
But I expect the Leader of the Opposition to have a better grip of current figures in the news than the average poster on Mumsnet - think how many people he would have had briefing him for that debate.

B) If you were to insist on calling a Jewish person with that surname Epshtyne after they told you they pronounced it Ep-steen, that would be antisemitic.

Oh ffs, the proper European pronunciation is Ep-shtine. 'Epsteen' sounds ridiculous and anyone who speaks German would automatically pronounce it as "shtine" . Can't believe people think pronouncing a name properly is anti-semitic!

the overtly Jewish pronunciation could be interpreted as "look at this person he's so bad because he's Jewish"

Anything can apparently be interpreted any way these days, without regard to proportionality or sense.

Corbyn has done a shit job on anti-semitism but this stuff is just silly. Corbyn does this on other foreign words. I bet he pronounces Chorritho in a manner which covers bystanders in phlegm.

Oh ffs, the proper European pronunciation is Ep-shtine. 'Epsteen' sounds ridiculous and anyone who speaks German would automatically pronounce it as "shtine" . Can't believe people think pronouncing a name properly is anti-semitic!

FFS. There is no one correct pronunciation. Jews have adapted their surnames for centuries to avoid to make ourselves seem less obviously Jewish. As a result, many surnames have a variety of different CORRECT pronunciations.

A Jewish person's surname is pronounced how they and their family pronounce it. Just like with any other person's surname.

Telling a Jewish person that you know better how to pronounce their surname than they do is incredibly antisemitic and offensive.

Telling a Jewish person that how they pronounce their surname is "ridiculous" is even more offensive.

@Halelli This is becoming very silly. Accusing people of anti-semitic pronunciation is trivialising actual antisemitism. I have a degree in sociolinguistics and it's perfectly normal to pronounce the name as Ep-shtine in Europe.

so pronouncing a Jewish name correctly equals antisemitism??

or even mispronouncing? I dunno...IS it the correct pronunciation?

people mispronounce my name daily. it isn't racist

Accusing people of anti-semitic pronunciation is trivialising actual antisemitism. I have a degree in sociolinguistics and it's perfectly normal to pronounce the name as Ep-shtine in Europe

If you really had a degree in linguistics then I'm sure you'd understand that language and pronunciations shift across time and space.

And in the US, it's perfectly normal to pronounce it as Epsteen. In the UK Jewish community, probably a mix of Epstein and Epstine, but never Epshtine.

There is no one correct pronunciation. End of. I too have an anglicised name. I won't reveal it here but I wonder whether you would consider it "ridiculous" as well.

this is just crazy talk
it had never occurred to me that Epstein might be Jewish- do we even know if he was or not?
I'm not fluent in German but it's a phonetic language so if you learn any at all, you can correctly pronounce any German word/name. Maybe Corbyn has read the name more than he has heard it so like me he would be hearing the German pronounciation in his head.
I had the same problem with Weinstein too and saying it the way they say it in America just feels very wrong. It would be like me reading 'Smith'and having to remember to say 'smeef'.
Really if people want to prove Corbyn is antisemetic they will have to do better than that.

so pronouncing a Jewish name correctly equals antisemitism??

Claiming that there is only one correct pronunciation of a Jewish name, and that any Jew who pronounces it differently is being ridiculous is antisemitism.

There is no one correct pronunciation. It's that simple.

I'm Jewish & I absolutely noticed it, yes. It's yet another (after many hundreds of others) examples of Corbyn making it crystal fucking clear that he considers Jews to be fundamentally 'other'.

This is nothing new - the Tories used to do it on purpose to the late Gerald Kaufman all the time

Jon Snow just said Ep stine. He's old enough to remember Brian as well.

I think we are all suffering from collective cognitive dissonance. As we wouldn't dream of being anti-semitic , when we have it staring in our face, we go 'nooooo, can't be....'

When people show you who they are believe them. Corbyn has shown us on more than one occassion where his feelings are.

The incidents of anti-semitism have risen since last year. If you are Jewish I think you have every right to call it out when it is aired publically yet covertly. Hidden in broad daylight - the most dangerous kind.

He certainly has shown where his feelings are. He's spent his adult life opposing racism, fascism and inequality wherever he's found it.

Supporting the Palestinian people in their disgusting, international disgrace of a plight isn't anti-semitic. Whatever the Israeli government would like us to think. That is the root cause of the "anti-semitism" smear campaign against Corbyn.

He does have the look of one of those people who would insist on using the correct Spanish pronunciation when ordering tapas in Croydon

I thought it sounded a little pretentious or try hard

But given his stance I can understand why people feel differently

"Yes, I'll have the pizza with shoreetho"

So... people, be aware of how a foreign name in a language you don't speak is mispronounced in third country. If you do speak the language, make sure to get the correct mispronuciation, however much it pains you. Otherwise you will be accused of prejudice towards an unrelated group.

Oh and it's choreetho

From now on I will be pronouncing Baddiel as bad deal, not that he often crops up in my conversations. What an arsehole.