The North

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

I've seen yet another thread where the OP is lambasted for being in a SE bubble (she was in a bubble tbf, but a bubble of incredible dimness), and many posters talk about The North as a place of scant opportunities, cheap housing, low wages and general divorce from The South, which is generally considered as the land of milk, honey, opportunity and high house prices.

It's very divorced from my experience of both places. I'm from an area in The North that is one of the wealthiest political wards in Europe, I went to work in the city after University (25 years ago) and despite having a very middle-class upbringing and accent, my flat vowels were treated as something of a curiosity (and they're really not that flat, everyone up here considers them 'southern') and Sheffield, my home city was, and still is, perceived as being some 'flat cap and whippets' place, despite having one of the highest proportions of professionals per capita in the UK.

My take from that experience was that born and brought-up Londoners are the most parochial people that I'd ever met. I had a much more 'worldly' experience being brought up in thr middle-class North than that of the supposedly urbane Southerners.

But still it goes on, people speak of The North as some kind of otherworldly shit-hole where the denizens scrabble around for cheap terraces on MW jobs and anything worth happening happens in The South.

Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle, Durham, York, the smaller towns and places where there's a huge amount of creativity, wealth creation, and professional people living fine and prosperous lives, and have for generations.

I just cannot understand the stereotypes that divide us so badly.

And yes, I also know and understand industrialisation and post-industrialisation that has affected certain areas of the UK. I'd say the area of the UK that's been hit worst by post-industrialism is the Midlands though. But no-one talks about that, or the poverty in the SW, it's always THE NORTH.

I'm from the Midlands - the East midlands and now the West midlands. It's got jobs, cultural capital and links but you have to look for outdoor things. And there are no beaches - not in the West Midlands though Wales is nearish.
Birmingham - there are things to do there but it is lacking in things like parks, recreation, lidos and museums for a city of its size - Manchester has a lot more in that case.

After all, 'Let's go on holiday to the Midlands' said no-one. Ever.

Lived in the South Midlands - never again...

I have lived and worked in some of the most poorest areas of London and felt much safer walking home in the dark on my own than growing up in the area I lived for the first part of my childhood

Are you comparing all of London to small towns in the North?

Yes - there are towns like Rotherham, Pontefract, Goole that have shopping centres but scratch below the surface and you don't have much else.

Then you have the cities - Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Bradford - which have really developed over the last 30 years. Those are the cities you should compare to London.

I lived in Devon by the sea for 5 years and experienced more crime there than I do in my hometown in the east Midlands. Due to the fact that there are no jobs, shit public transport and absolutely nothing local for young people to do apart from hang around in the McDonalds.

Every area has a different set of problems and all areas have good parts and shitty parts.

I think mumsnet comes from nice areas and nice families and can’t get their mind round that people still live in the middle of crime and poverty despite having a big department store a new shopping mall selling designer dresses a few miles up the road

Ever been to South Leeds? Harehills? Chapeltown? Some very poor parts of Leeds with upmarket apartments, fancy malls and restaurants just up the road.

I am sure that those Mumsnetters who live in Leeds are aware that it's not all rosy there.

And no you wouldn’t learn to roller skate as someone would have knifed you to get them off your feet even back in the 70s

Drip, drip, drip.

Earlier you said nobody could roller skate due to the weather.

Do you understand what is meant by “stereotype”?

I think mumsnet comes from nice areas and nice families and can’t get their mind round that people still live in the middle of crime and poverty despite having a big department store a new shopping mall selling designer dresses a few miles up the road

So you’re suggesting you’re the only one who “gets it”.

Yeah. I come from a nice wealthy family. I also volunteered and then worked for a project in one of the areas that regularly hits the “top 10 most deprived list” giving diversionary activities to young men to try and prevent more issues with crime.

I’m now working for a client in another of the most deprived areas of the country. Their story of life in the north is very different from yours, despite the poverty.

there are towns like Rotherham, Pontefract, Goole that have shopping centres but scratch below the surface and you don't have much else.

I haven’t read the whole thread but I have lived in lots of places around the country and as small towns go, those away from the South East have always had a lot more going on ‘below the surface’ than where I grew up. Community groups, events, sporting and creative organisations as well as areas of beauty.

The South East always felt like everything it has is out there for all to see but scratch the surface and there’s nothing else. No really sense of community, except for social circles. Elsewhere it’s deeper and more genuine, more real.

In fact, in the towns you mention (I know two relatively well) there are amazing things going on below the surface.

Your understanding of the north could clearly never match that of someone who left nearly four decades ago jacques.

@Oliversmumsarmy

I don’t quite understand the point that you’re making. You don’t seem to like anywhere

DawnOfTheDeadleg

Absolutely. I am bowing to their clear superiority.

Well.I don't live in a nice area it's quite deprived but my parents do ,that's the point there are deprived areas everywhere including London , ,as for knife crime I thought it was higher in London than e elsewhere There will always be area ,s where people don't feel safe walking home including London, I get that you think London is amazing Oliver's ,that's great but you can't base your very narrow experience of the place you grew up in on the whole of the North .

there are towns like Rotherham, Pontefract, Goole that have shopping centres but scratch below the surface and you don't have much else

And I expect that there are small towns in the south east that don't have much going on locally either.

It's a bit ridiculous to compare Rotherham, Goole or Pontefract with London as evidence that there's less going on in the north than the south.

No-one would ever use Leeds, Manchester or Liverpool compared with small towns similar in size/population to Rotherham, Goole or Pontefract in the south as evidence that there's more going on in the north than the south, so to stick with the line that 'London has everything' and the north has nothing because there are no national museums or Harvey Nicks in Pontefract is just stupid.

It's a bit ridiculous to compare Rotherham, Goole or Pontefract with London as evidence that there's less going on in the north than the south

And that's not what my post implied. As you rightly say, and as I said, you need to look at the big cities like Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield - which is exactly what I said in the rest of my post.

It seemed like Oliver Mums Army was thinking about the smaller towns and what they had and was comparing them to London. Which is ridiculous.

It's interesting as well Jacques because as an attitude, it shows clear signs of the phenomenon OP mentions: northern means poor. You can only be really authentically northern if you're underprivileged.

I wasn't replying to you chom.

I was replying to the endless 'London is great and there is nothing worth having anywhere else' posters who don't seem to realise that 'the north' is not just empty countryside with a few small towns but also has large cities with theatres, restaurants, national museums, galleries, shops, large parks and all the other things that they seem to think only exists in London.

I was talking about one of the bigger cities.

Come out of them and there is still poverty and crime and people who shop at the local corner shop and don’t really go into the city.

Come out of them and there is still poverty and crime and people who shop at the local corner shop and don’t really go into the city

Of course there is poverty and crime in cities like Leeds and Sheffield. Even though the centre is great, lots of shops and restaurants, there is also poverty and crime, and people stay in their areas.

Having lived in London for many years, that's still going to be the same for many people who live in London - and only stay in their local areas.

It's the same for all big cities - so I am not sure of the point you are trying to make.

And surely even London has its boring bits of mundane every day life ,it's vast ,there must be people plodding along in the outskirts of London that don't go to the theatre , museums etc regularly, I live in Greater Manchester about ten miles from Manchester city centre and as much as I love my city ,I don't go in regularly as it can be expensive and I don't have the time .

Come out of them and there is still poverty and crime and people who shop at the local corner shop and don’t really go into the city

Indeed. Like places in London...?

Just to clarify, so when you say “The North” you mean your experiences 40 years ago in Manchester.

I live semi-rurally. We use the corner shop (and a wonderful high street of independents in the local town) because we want them to continue to be able to serve a community and because I have the disposable funds to do so.

I can imagine that with the obscene price of the West End, that many people in London can only dream of being able to go to the theatres there.

TBF - prices are cheaper up North but are still expensive.

chomalungma

I can do you a direct comparison! Last month we went to see a particular show on tour. In London (small venue, NOT West End) the tickets were £60. Where we went? £20

I was talking about one of the bigger cities.

Come out of them and there is still poverty and crime and people who shop at the local corner shop and don’t really go into the city.

Could you clarify which area you were talking about when you claimed it rained too much to learn skateboarding?

The roller skating comment has made me lol. Its what we did as 80's kids in the north. I live in a semi rural area which is a magnet for cycling, walking, running etc. Lots of triathlon competitions, that sort of thing. But we're only half an hour from Manchester City centre so I think we get the best of both worlds.

DP grew up in one of the 'unsuitable for Mumsnet' areas of Leeds mentioned in this thread and spent all his teenage years and a good part of his 20s and 30s skateboarding and not once did he or any of his peers get stabbed or robbed while doing it. And they used underpasses and shopping centres before the days of Sunday opening to stay out of the rain

I get it olivers. You think London is great. You and it are welcome to each other. Because lets not forget, if too many people realise that you can have quite a nice life in a city in northern England, they'll come and do it too, and bring the problem of supply and demand making it unaffordable to people on average incomes with them.