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Original poster

Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

669 replies

tippytoesah · 02/08/2019 08:37

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? Confused"

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

OP posts:
JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 02/08/2019 11:22

The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist.

Confused of course they do.

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2019 11:22

“The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist.”

Allow me to introduce you to Kent.

AliMonkey · 02/08/2019 11:23

11+ was not normally used to decide O level or CSE other than it would be O level if you passed. Those who didn’t were then assessed during first few years of secondary to decide which exams were suitable. If it was used like that in some areas then no wonder some people are so anti grammar!

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Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:24

Entry by 11 plus, whatever it might be called.

I know we disagree but it really, really isn’t. The 11+ was sat by every pupil and divided kids into ‘clever’ and ‘not clever’. It was a traumatic process for many children and the pressure of knowing your future might be decided at 11 must have been enormous for some of them. If you didn’t pass it you went off to Secondary Modern and assumptions were made about your future from then on.

Current grammars appear mostly to be just one option in a range of potential schools in almost every area. Whatever the right or wrong of them, sitting their test, which you or your parents volunteer you to do, and then not getting in does not represent the same consequences as it used to. You may well still have access to a range of excellent schools and at the very least failure does not officially close any doors to you. School selection tests are a really different thing. They may be colloquially known as 11+ in some places but that doesn’t make them the same.

Mustbetimeforachange · 02/08/2019 11:28

Double the only one I am familiar with is Buckinghamshire as we live nearby. The 11 plus there is exactly as you describe it in your first paragraph (Kent is similar, I believe). There are no comprehensives in Bucks, just Grammar Schools and Upper Schools (secondary moderns). About 30% pass the 11 plus. It's a brutal system, but yes, I accept it isn't the same everywhere.

LittleMissEngineer · 02/08/2019 11:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Purpletigers · 02/08/2019 11:29

We have Grammars in NI for those who pass their AQE then catholic grammars for those who pass the GL . Only in NI 😢
The main benefit of a grammar school system imo is the lack of private schools . Grammars level the playing field for a lot of children . I know a lot of children from very ordinary families who are now doctors , barristers, dentists etc
My dd wasn’t capable of sitting the AQE , she attends a local high school . It’s fantastic and suits her perfectly .

IggyAce · 02/08/2019 11:31

No grammar schools near me.

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:32

It's a brutal system, but yes, I accept it isn't the same everywhere.

It is horrible and I have examples in my own family of how it damaged people for life. But only a small number of the selective schools that can be called ‘grammars’ sit within the Bucks system. And it seems that the Kent Test is now optional too.

MigGril · 02/08/2019 11:33

You see the current scarcity of Grammar schools in the UK was one of the reasons I couldn't understand why the government where thinking at one point it maybe a good idea to reintroduce them. The cost of bring in an almost absolute system in most areas seemed a total waits of money and it doesn't always show huge benefits for that cost. Just seemed a ludicrous idea.

AngelasAshes · 02/08/2019 11:35

I’m in East Anglia and no grammar schools here. Nearest are in London. Which is unfair because both my kids scored 6s across the board on their 11+ SATs. But due to no grammar schools, they went to the local comp.

Morgan12 · 02/08/2019 11:35

The English schooling system genuinely baffles me. I had no idea it was so different until I joined MN. Scotland is so much easier.

JamesBlonde1 · 02/08/2019 11:38

No Grammar schools in the North-East. Nearest is North Yorkshire.

Shame really, I have a very bright kid who I know would whoop the 11+. Instead I'm paying a small fortune for private as the state provision is shite in my area.

Pretty crap that we don't have Grammar anymore; it was certainly a step up for those who passed it back in my parents day.

notangelinajolie · 02/08/2019 11:41

The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist

And Trafford

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2019 11:44

“And it seems that the Kent Test is now optional too.”

Well, it’s optional. But there are no comprehensives to go to if you don’t take it.

IAskTooManyQuestions · 02/08/2019 11:47

The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist

And Bexley!

areyoubeingserviced · 02/08/2019 11:48

If he lived in Kent ( which I do), he would be a bloody expert on the 11+.
Sometimes, I wish that I was oblivious

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:48

I see. So not exactly a mixed economy.

Grammar schools are great for those who get in. And in conversations about their merits, parents tend to assume their kids are in that group.

A member of my family failed the 11+. Ended up with degrees from Oxford and Harvard. A senior executive in a multinational company. Because their parents could afford two years at private school before a second chance at grammar at 13. The alternative would have been Secondary Modern, and the rest would have been vanishingly unlikely. And yes, of course their parents thought they’d pass 11+.

isabellerossignol · 02/08/2019 11:52

The main benefit of a grammar school system imo is the lack of private schools . Grammars level the playing field for a lot of children .

I'm in N Ireland too and I would agree with this. The last thing we need here is people going to catchment area schools because for a lot of kids secondary school is the first time they get to meet people from outside their own community. Obviously integrated schools would be the best of all, but in the meantime for a lot of people, grammar schools are the way out. And I don't see the angst about 'failure' at age 11 that is always mentioned. I know very very few people who went to a non grammar who feel that they missed out because of it. The non grammars in my area have a fantastic reputation. They study the same subjects and do the same exams. The difference is in the way they do it. The grammars are often quite 'sink or swim' whilst the non grammars are more involved with individual pupils. Both styles work as long as you choose the one that is right for your child. I know plenty of bright children whose parents chose a non grammar because that's what suited them best.

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2019 11:54

“Grammars level the playing field for a lot of children”

Not in England they don’t. I am assured they do in Northern Ireland, but I don’t know enough to comment.

fedup21 · 02/08/2019 11:56

@Zippy25

The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist. The 11 plus was taken to determine if you were going to do CSEs or O levels. Everyone takes GCSEs now

What are you talking about!!?

I would so love for you to come back and expand on this!

My parents went to grammar schools, I went to grammar and my kids go to grammar schools. Or do you think we went to mythical schools Grin

SaveKevin · 02/08/2019 11:59

Nope it was completely alien to me growing up. Some out dated thing my parents did, that seemed to affect them both pretty badly for different reasons.

However, I accidentally now live in a grammar area and it’s been a steep learning curve!! It seems to make choice less and more difficult for your child to attend the school that may suit them best.

IAskTooManyQuestions · 02/08/2019 12:00

The 11 plus and grammar schools no longer exist. The 11 plus was taken to determine if you were going to do CSEs or O levels. Everyone takes GCSEs now

Thats utter drivel

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2019 12:03

What zippy is implying is that the main obvious iniquity of the “old” grammar system was that only grammar school pupils could take O levels-secondary modern pupils were restricted to CSEs.
Everyone can now take GCSEs whatever school they’re at.

The question grammars school supporters don’t want to answer is this. If both types of school can do the same exams, why do the pupils need to be in different buildings?.

colourlessgreenidea · 02/08/2019 12:10

I find it amusing that the OP was shocked at the supposed ignorance of her family and it turns out that she is just as bad.

Grin

I can’t decide if I’m amused, baffled, or horrified that someone has no qualms whatsoever about essentially stating ‘this is my experience of the world and I ignorantly assume that it is exactly the same for everyone else across the entire country.’

It’s shameful to have such a narrow perspective. Hmm