Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

"Bromley does not have grammar schools. It has two super selectives, one for girls and one for boys."
Bromely does have grammar schools - super-selective grammar schools. In that they take the top scores from the test without regard for any distance criteria. Other grammar schools work on a pass or fail basis and take those that pass if within distance.

"Meanwhile Tiffin school, within half a mile of it, are a boys and girls state schools that have an exam to get in and are difficult to get into, and are actually in my opinion a grammar in all but name."

They are absolutely grammar schools. Grammar schools are defined by selection, not by name.

OP: "To confuse matters further, my boss lives in a nice village and a few other little places like Torrington etc have the catchment for a very nice primary school. Her DC won't move onto actual senior school until 13!

None of it is private either, nor is it selective. It's just a small catchment area."

That's a middle school system.

The question grammars school supporters don’t want to answer is this. If both types of school can do the same exams, why do the pupils need to be in different buildings?.

So the swotty kids can be with other swotty kids? And some kids in a comp not have too much pressure on attainment if that isn’t right for them.

No grammar school where I grew up in the south west. Hadn't even heard of grammar schools until I went to uni and met people that had attended one.

We had 2 secondary schools in my town. The one you attended was down to where you lived.

Dependent on where in East Anglia. Lincolnshire has at least 5 grammar schools I can immediately bring to mind. All local primaries prepare for the 11+.

I mentioned on here once that I was educated in an area that had a dual system of middle schools and primaries, so high schools took some pupils for entry in year 7 and another, larger batch in year 8. Another poster initially refused to believe that was true, and, once it had been validated, refused to believe that it could work as a system.

Mumsnet provides constant evidence that lots of people find it difficult to imagine any kind of life they don't already live themselves, but hopefully it also provides them a window onto all these other worlds! It's probably human nature. I don't think shaming people is likely to make them more open minded; shame doesn't engender learning. Hence the issue with grammar schools.

All local primaries prepare for the 11+.

That’s interesting as that certainly isn’t the case in Essex. Some schools run clubs and are quite proud of how many children they get through but other heads are quite against the whole system and offer no specific support.

I suppose now the exam here is much less VR focused, the content is perhaps more likely to be covered by NC stuff anyway.

Lincolnshire is normally classified as the East Midlands rather than East Anglia.

There haven't been any Grammar schools in the my town since the early 80,s or the neighbouring town I grew up in I think the local private school might offer scholarships but I would think these are rare and only for exceptionally bright kids .

Three state grammars in North Yorkshire, maybe a couple in West Yorkshire over Calderdale way.

It's not surprising that in most of England and Wales that the notion of selective state schooling is not recognized/considered, given that in all but 10 L.A there is no such thing !

Overall 87% of children in England and Wales are educated at Comprehensive schools/non academic selective schools 5% at Grammar schools and 7% at Private schools. The remaining 1% are educated in other non mainstream environments P.R.U home or by specialist educational schools.

Personally and this will be very unpopular here, i believe about 20% of all children should be educated at state Grammar schools. Thus, when partnered with Private schools would equate to about 27% of children having the benefit of selective education.

In NI the 11+ was technically abolished quite a few years ago, but as no proper plan was put in place by the then education minister the grammar schools decided to put use their own tests. The state grammars and the catholic grammars did their own thing so now you have two tests. The AQE which has 3 exams and the GL which has 2. Some parents put their children in for both either to improve their chance of getting a high score or because they are applying to both state and catholic schools.

There has been talk of these tests being combined into one test which you would think should be relatively straightforward, but because it’s NI putting the needs of children first rather than petty politics just doesn’t happen

Having never been through any kind of selective system the idea that primary school has an ‘outcome’ just makes me sad. Primary school should be an environment where children just get to enjoy learning and have the opportunity to develop at their own pace.

Dorset, (not including Poole and Bournemouth, as mentioned upthread,) went comprehensive around 1979/80. I went from 1st year junior school in July 1980 to 0 year middle school in September 1980. All the same school and teachers, though. I went up to secondary school at 13 in 1985, and you still knew in most cases which of the older teachers had previously been in the secondary modern and which in the grammar.

All local primaries prepare for the 11+.
It's not allowed in most counties as they are supposed to be focusing on the national curriculum, rather than a test which will not benefit most children.

But people do go to the Lincolnshire ones from Norfolk and Cambridgeshire, hence I said dependent on where in East Anglia :)

I moved to York from a comprehensive area in my mid teens, and had to do a '13+' to decide whether I was going to a sec mod or grammar. The grammar system in York (and perhaps across North yorks??) ceased in June 85, and in the sept - my 5th year in old money - us grammar girls joined the grammar boys down the road. Oh, the excitement!!

Don’t think we have this in Scotland. Thankfully.

They definitely do practise papers and the practise test is often held at the primary school rather than the grammar school. It might be extra lessons (my children at a Cambridgeshire primary so not included)

If both types of school can do the same exams, why do the pupils need to be in different buildings?

Because not all schools actually offer the same subjects/exams! Just because they "can" doesn't mean that they "do"!

I.e. the comps in my home town don't offer Further Maths or any foreign language other than French, nor any classics (i.e. Latin/Greek). Some have a very limited option range for A levels, i.e. again, the ones in my town don't offer any modern foreign language at A level.

For my son, the lack of Further Maths was a deal breaker as the two comps didn't do anything at all for kids who were advanced in Maths.

They definitely do practise papers and the practise test is often held at the primary school rather than the grammar school.

That will depend on the area and individual schools. My son's primary didn't do anything at all - they didn't even acknowledge the existence of the 11+ nor grammar schools.

The only Grammar schools near to me are a couple of private schools which have added the word Grammar to their names.

Yes I mentioned I was talking about Lincolnshire in my earlier posts

No grammar schools here, not in the area I grew up. Our non selective local state comp also outperforms several local private schools (whom I am assuming select on ability and ability to pay)

No grammar schools in my area. There is one ni the next local authority but it isn;t like most grammar schools. They set a pass mark for their entrance exam and rather than taking the children with the highest scores they shortlist everyone who passes then allocate the places according to being Catholic, feeder primaryes, distance from school etc.

I think the nearest proper grammar school to me is about 30 miles away.

Top set in my son's school consists of children who are expected to get Grades 6-9 in their GCSE's. Top sets in a typical grammar school woulod be those expected to get Grades 8/9 with the odd 7.

I am 54 and for me Grammers have never existed only in the mists of time of people like my folks, who are now in their 70's.

My town/city abolished Grammers fairly early on, in the early 70's. My DH who was born in 1958 was one of the last ones to take his 11+ and even then they had three tiered school system before going completely comprehensive in about 1974.

I have a friend who lives in a town with only one comprehensive but who retained the name Town Grammer, and she used to love to tell people she went to town Grammer and it did used to impress (usually older) people