Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

"Places at these schools are very sought after as they more often than not outperform the results of the private schools in the area." Well, yes: the intake has been selected as the top scorers in the test! Results reflect the intake.

We have them, thankfully.

People do tend to think they are some form of elite private school - and they are not.

Kent still has super selctives as well as grammers ie Judds

@Doubleraspberry - you dont all take them in Kent - and only for or five London Boroughs that are still grammar areas. Where as it used to be all Y6's in, this is now actively discouraged and it is parental choice whether to enter. Certainly in Bexley that has been the case since 2012, but not prior,.

St Olaves is a grammar school and thats in Bromley, as is Newstead girls - you have to take an entrance test.

Nope! Grammar schools were phased out in the late 80s in most areas. Now it's comp or private.

Bromley does not have grammar schools. It has two super selectives, one for girls and one for boys.

How do they select?

There has not been a full grammar school system in Herts for over 50 years, since it was abolished in 1968, though there are several partially selective schools in the area. The 11+ was abolished even before that, I got in in 1967 on the basis of reports from my primary school.

Iask thanks, I thought the Kent Test was still alive and well. I didn’t realise any London boroughs at all did a year 6 year in any recent time.

“Oh I see! I really wasn't aware. I thought grammar schools were quite a big thing in England in general”

I have to say I find this as puzzling as I find all your relations never having heard of the 11+!

So assuming you live in an area with grammars and get into one what is the difference between them and any other school? I’m in Scotland so genuinely have no idea (though my mum went to a grammar school back in the day).

Are they just considered more academic?

*Guildford Grammar, like Reigate, is a private school. Just has the old name.

Really? When I was in primary I was going to do the entrance exam for it and this was only mid 2000s. Do you have entrance exams for private schools to? Sorry I genuinely didn't know.*

The Royal Grammar school in Guildford has always been private always. It did used to have Direct Grant places and then Assisted Places. There are people in Guildford who put their sons in for the entry exam as a kind of psuedo 11+. But in 2000 it was definitely a private school.

Grammar schools exist in my county. I did the 11+ and passed but didn’t get in as I lived too far. No one really talked about it when I was at school. It wasn’t common for those in my primary school to take it. The only people I knew who took it were of south Asian decent and those in my tuition class were from the same background. An ex work colleague moved area just so she had good grammar school options. My cousin also went to a grammar school. I didn’t realise that a lot of counties didn’t have grammar schools.

*Bromley does not have grammar schools. It has two super selectives, one for girls and one for boys.

How do they select?*

They have their own entrance tests. The girl's is a verbal and non-verbal, the boys have a two part test including Maths and English comprehension as well.

Do you have entrance exams for private schools to? Sorry I genuinely didn't know.

It’s called ‘Common Entrance’ and normally takes place at age 13. As another poster said, some but not all private schools have it. It can be quite tough.

We have a famous pair of grammar Schools nearby. There are upwards of 1500 kids sitting for 120 places each year. The eventual children selected are so far from a normal mixed cohort and (most have super ambitious patents ) that I would have reservations about sending a child there.

A good comprehensive did very well for my bright children. ( not a brag, a statement of truth- one was notoriously lazy )

When you live in a grammar school area it’s easy to forget that for most of the UK they don’t exist. I live on the Bexley/Dartford borders so all the year 6s sit 2 11+ tests (one for Bexley/one for kent) and it’s a big thing here.
Lots of kids get tutored but DD isn’t academic and having been a grammar school kid myself and having seen how those who struggle get left behind I won’t be pushing her to pass.
Imo grammar schools are brilliant for the naturally super bright but bad for everyone else. Kids who just scrape in who would be top of the class in any other school face 7 years of being bottom of the class and the demotivation that brings. Non selective schools also suffer by losing the best and brightest kids and having to take on all of the more ‘challenging’ children.

'Comprehensives have top sets which teach grammar ability kids at Grammar speed of learning.'

Maybe some do. I went to a grammar, my older kids are in the top set of a comprehensive and the pace and standard are nothing like. They don't get to do 2 languages at GCSE either.
Ime it's a bit of a myth that no grammars in the area means the comprehensives will automatically be good. There are too many other factors. In the town where I grew up (and got the bus to the next town for the grammar) the comprehensive offered a huge range of subjects and got a couple of people a year into Oxbridge. But population density is greater there.

@leakinglikeacolander ha, one of my friends moved away from Kent specifically to avoid the two tier system we have here. To be honest around here most people see it as a bad system but since that is what we have they have to play the system, put their kids in for the test, get tutoring etc. Because everyone knows that the fact if there being grammar schools means the non-grammars do much worse than a proper comprehensive school, as they don't have any of the top 20% of academic achievers.

Many Private schools have entrance exams, the selective ones certainly do
DD’s is not selective but they do have an entrance exam to level the dc and to offer scholarships where applicable. But if they have space and you can pay you can go

The grammar / secondary modern system ended where I grew up in about 1979/80. All comprehensives since then.

While to me, grammars / SMs are where my parents' generation went. I realise that, if you're in your mid-20s and your parents were in their 20s when you were born, they would have been of the comprehensive generation too. Grammars would be nothing but history to you.

I do think that being aware of them, their social impact (social mobility for an elite selected on merit, post-war to 1970s) and the widespread loss of them is general knowledge. I didn't realise until reading it (here or in a newspaper), why the conservatives supported the end of grammars and birth of comprehensives (especially as now is mostly conservatives who want to bring them back). The answer was that where they took the top 10-15% a lot of children of conservative voters did not get in and this made them unhappy.

I’m in Scotland and we definitely do have a grammar school in Glasgow.

I grew up in the Midlands and was vaguely aware of grammar schools as my parents had both passed the 11 plus back in the 50s. I always thought that they'd been abolished in the 60s and was genuinely shocked when I moved down South and found that the next county has them.

In Kent a grammar school is what happens when you slice off a quite narrowly defined “top” 23%, tell them they have passed something, put them in one building. You then tell the other 77% that they have failed something and put them in another building. With all the attendant societal, familial and psychological consequences anyone with a glimmer of imagination could anticipate.

l'm from the North East, and l went to a Grammar school in the early 1970s. lt changed to a comprehensive around 1976, though.

It seems you're the clueless one, OP! Hardly anywhere still has grammar schools. how have you not noticed that there aren't any in the area where you live?

We have them here in South East London and Kent.

BertrandRussell I’m not sure about Buckinghamshire - my parents moved into Oxfordshire as my DM was opposed to 11+ So I never experienced it. I now live in Kent and we do have some comprehensive options. My local grammar school (Cranbrook) was, until recently, 13+ with the majority coming from local prep schools and children from state primaries having to tread water for years 7&8 in the local ‘secondary modern’. I’m glad that’s changed but many of the grammars are the preserve of those that can afford nearby houses or tutors.