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Original poster

Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

669 replies

tippytoesah · 02/08/2019 08:37

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? Confused"

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 02/08/2019 20:30

Well this thread is VERY eye-opening.

BertrandRussell · 02/08/2019 20:31

I don’t think the 11+ is compulsory anywhere.

SabineSchmetterling · 02/08/2019 20:36

Where is this evidence that kids who would thrive in grammars are failing in comps? As I said earlier the top 9 schools for progress for high prior attainment students are all non-selective.

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AdalindMeisner · 02/08/2019 20:38

We have two in this county (nw England) a girls (day) and boys (day and boarding). There is also a co-ed grammar over the county line - about an hour or two away. I think for the girls school it is only 4/5 applications to each place (and girls are travelling from all over county for the school), so not a massive demand. They are definitely not the norm here.

isabellerossignol · 02/08/2019 20:39

secretsciurusvulgaris I had a look at more up to date N Ireland statistics and one school in Belfast had a 99.3% pass rate at GCSE and 28% FSM. Admittedly that's an outlier statistically though. But as you said, 10 to 15% isn't unusual.

MillicentMartha · 02/08/2019 20:40

Gosh, @missyB1 did you read my post?

Cheltenham is much preferable to Gloucester, only one grammar in Cheltenham, and super selective which doesn’t adversely affect the local comprehensives very much. In Gloucester 4 grammars which leave the alternative city schools as de facto secondary moderns. And each grammar has expanded recently. Terrible system.

In Cheltenham many of the grammar school intake would have gone private otherwise, so it’s hardly enabling social mobility, and in Gloucester it’s crippled the city academies.

Your post
I used to be in favour of Grammar schools but I have changed my mind. I do think in Gloucestershire it has definitely affected the comprehensives negatively. And the Cheltenham Grammar in particular has a lot of privately educated children or children who would have gone private if they hadn’t got a place - so not promoting social mobility at all!

I guess we agree! Grin

AdalindMeisner · 02/08/2019 20:42

Oh and where my in laws live they have schools that are called grammars but only in name (ie non selective) I don't think they have any true selective grammars and they are upper southern England.

missyB1 · 02/08/2019 20:52

Ha ha @MillicentMartha great minds and all that Grin

Zippy25 · 02/08/2019 20:54

Apologies, I didn't explain properly in my previous post. It's interesting reading all the posts as I didn't know the 11 plus still existed. Thanks for the edification Smile

bumblingalonghappily · 02/08/2019 21:11

Are you in herts or Bedfordshire op? Generally (and there are of course some exceptions) the state secondaries in herts are much better than those in beds, which is one reason for the vast difference in house prices. The catchment areas for the best schools though are of course tiny and in expensive areas, which is just selective in a different way sadly! Still a lot fairer than the grammar school system though 😊😊

TatianaLarina · 02/08/2019 21:20

I don’t agree that grammars leave comprehensives as secondary moderns. They did in the old days before the comprehensive system.

Unless you really believe that grammars take every single bright child in a county, there are plenty of very bright children in the comprehensives to make them truly comprehensive.

Some of the old arguments against grammars were that they couldn’t accommodate all the bright children in the borough; that some very bright children failed as 11 is very young to be testing; that there were plenty of bright children in non-academic families who weren’t supported to focus on passing. All of which are true.

So plenty of bright children in the comprehensive system which anyway has a very different outlook to the old secondary moderns.

saraclara · 02/08/2019 21:23

Yep, there are no secondary moderns now. Where there are Grammar schools, the Comprehensives are just slightly less comprehensive than they would otherwise be.

JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam · 02/08/2019 21:28

I grew up in Lincolnshire where the grammar system is very much still alive and well as far as I know. When I did my 11+ it was opt out not opt in and I believe the spaces were offered to the top x amount of scores. I went to a girls grammar.

I’m raising my children in Birmingham where there is a super selective grammar system which I don’t particularly like and the 11+ is opt in, however it is the system

JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam · 02/08/2019 21:30

Sorry posted too quickly (dropped my phone Blush)

However it is the system I have to work with and as such I have one child in local comprehensive and one child starting a super selective grammar in September.

Two more children to go and we’ll see where they end up. I am ultimately in favour of the grammar system which I know is a rare view point.

theunrivalledjoysofparenting · 02/08/2019 21:39

Are you in herts or Bedfordshire op? Generally (and there are of course some exceptions) the state secondaries in herts are much better than those in beds, which is one reason for the vast difference in house prices. The catchment areas for the best schools though are of course tiny and in expensive areas, which is just selective in a different way sadly! Still a lot fairer than the grammar

@bumblingalonghappily - that doesn’t make any sense. House prices are higher in Herts because it’s a home county and you’re closer to London and the M25.

And why is house price a fairer assessment than the child taking a test and passing it? You’re saying that if the parents have money, that’s fairer than the child being intelligent enough to pass the 11+ which is insane.

Can you give stats on the differences in attainment in Herts and Beds schools?

Passthecherrycoke · 02/08/2019 21:43

I grew up in Oxfordshire where there are no grammars. I was brought up thinking they died out on the dark ages along with sending children up chimneys (and where comparatively cruel 🤣) and didn’t know anyone born after 1960 who took it.

I briefly lived in Kent and many people there are quite ignorant about how rare grammars are and seem to think everyone can take the 11+

Maladicta · 02/08/2019 21:45

Where I am, the upper schools are good but what they offer is different to the grammars - sitting several GCSEs early, languages optional post KS3, no single sciences.

All my dcs got into grammar although I would have been very happy for them to attend one of the local uppers.

Mustbetimeforachange · 02/08/2019 21:46

Yep, there are no secondary moderns now. Where there are Grammar schools, the Comprehensives are just slightly less comprehensive than they would otherwise be.
There are secondary modems in Bucks. There isn't a single comprehensive school there. I accept it is different there (we are just over the border in Herts), but nonetheless, it is a fact. 30% of children approx go to grammar, the rest to secondary modems.

verystressedmum · 02/08/2019 21:58

No one went to grammar in the London borough I grew up in. I don't know if I knew what a grammar school was then.
But I now live in a grammar area and all 3 dcs are in/have been in grammar.

bumblingalonghappily · 02/08/2019 22:14

@theunrivalledjoysofparenting

Yes, I said the difference in schools was one of the reasons for the difference in house prices between the two counties- herts being a home county will naturally play a big part as well. I just know from living and working in the area that it is widespread knowledge that parents living on the border will try to get their children into Hertfordshire secondary schools if they can (and as I said before, there will of course be exceptions to this and probably some excellent beds schools)- but that seems to be the general perception around here. Whether those perceptions are based on mostly facts or hearsay could be debated- but working in education myself I can vouch that they most definitely exist.

And of course it's not fair selecting based on finances- overall though I would say the state school/comp system is fairer as on balance it does allow a wider range of students to access excellent schools- in some areas as I said the catchments are tiny and you generally have to be very wealthy to live in the catchment areas (which is very unfair) but that's not true of many good comps. Whereas all grammar schools by their nature exclude entry from some students from an incredibly young age, and as many have said it's hard to allow for that to be fair especially when more well off parents can pay for extra tuition at that age or will deliberately buy houses in expensive counties such as bucks where grammars exist in the hopes of getting their children in.

Regarding stats, that's an interesting question- I was merely trying to join in the conversation in a friendly way as thought it was interesting- but would love to know the stats myself- have tried to have a look but ofsted don't seem to do the regional reports anymore (or at least I can't find them)- and if they did I would be very wary of their data as it's all based on progress 8 now!(which in some ways is much better than the previous ways of measuring schools but not perfect either).

Anyway, just trying to give some friendly advice based on what my personal experiences are and what I have heard from many friends in the area and colleagues in education who have worked in both areas. The OP can decide if they think it's helpful if not- no worries if not! 😊

LER83 · 02/08/2019 23:24

There are 3 grammar schools within half an hour of where I live, so I didn't realise they weren't actually a thing in the rest of the country!

Ilikecurrybest · 02/08/2019 23:32

No Grammar schools where I grew up. I honestly thought they’d disappeared in the 70s until I moved to the Home Counties

SadOtter · 03/08/2019 01:54

I live in a grammar area (Kent) and until recently I'd never realised how lucky people who don't are.

DS(15) passed easily, there was never any doubt he would, goes to a lovely grammar, it suits him perfectly, he is really happy. DD(10) is not likely to pass, our non grammar options are good but she wants to go to grammar, so I've had to choose between let her take it and probably fail or say no and let her know I don't think she can pass (I've gone let her take it, I'm not sure that was the right choice)

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 03/08/2019 05:48

I have only heard about grammar schools on MN. I think they only exist down south? Here you just go to your nearest or chosen school.

Userzzzzz · 03/08/2019 05:58

No grammars near me but since moving I’ve realised the private system acts in the same way- so many people do private for secondary at selective day schools that the comps are basically like secondary moderns and are a bit shite. So you effectively get an 11 plus to prep for and a massive bill. Grammars would be fairer.