Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

There are still grammar schools near here, but officially the county went comprehensive in 1972. The city kept their grammars. I was already at a grammar school which turned comp that year and my parents moved within the city boundaries so that my sister didn't have to go to the other new comp which had previously been the secondary modern. Those 4 schools (2 boys and 2 girls) have remained ever since, and there's a mixed one in the next town. My children sat the tests for the grammars and went to them, but their primary schools didn't arrange it, we had to organise it ourselves, unlike when I went when all children sat the test. They are no longer for children living in the city, kids are bussed in from the surrounding counties so I guess they are getting harder and harder to get into.

No grammar schools here either; just independent or comprehensives

@fragalino same experience here and that was at the supposedly top comprehensive in our area. Fortunately, there was a grammar school 17 miles away over the county border and I escaped there towards the end of Year 9. Never looked back despite having to catch up in French, German & Biology having been in all the top sets at the comp.

No grammar schools in my large town.

There are no grammar schools in my county.

Despite the huge red splodge on the map for grammar schools in Lincolnshire, I should point out that there are none within the City of Lincoln. Over 20 years ago there was a massive fuss at the prospect of them being reintroduced, and parent power prevailed!

Academic selection does not necessarily mean better outcomes for bright students. The best P8 for any grammar school is 1.22 from what I can see. (Colchester County High and QE girls tied)
If you look at the schools that have the best P8 for high achievers they come in at 10th and 11th nationally. The top 9 schools for progress for the high prior attainment band are all non-selective. There are a fair number of grammar schools in the top 50 but it’s really interesting to see how much the super-selectives actually dominate. Supporters of grammars often argue that they are disadvantaged by P8 because it’s harder to “add value” to kids with high prior attainment. The top 50 list suggests that actually the highly selective grammar schools are doing pretty well in P8 (KEGS, HBS, QE girls, Tiffin) whereas the less selective Kent and Bucks grammars do not feature much in the top 50. Not sure what the implications of that are.

The Sutton Trust has highlighted general disparity with fsm. It's possible their recommendations are coming through if more poor dc are starting to access the schools again. Beggars belief back in 50s poorer kids could easily access grammar, and now due to political policy they were cut out.
I just don't think it's wise to massively change any system without replacing it with something far better.
Unfortunately comps were not far better.
I think they are slowly getting better but generations thrown under the bus in the mean time.

“Beggars belief back in 50s poorer kids could easily access grammar”

They couldn’t. Grammar schools have never been for poor children. Apart from anything else, there was too much “stuff” to buy.

I used to be in favour of Grammar schools but I have changed my mind. I do think in Gloucestershire it has definitely affected the comprehensives negatively. And the Cheltenham Grammar in particular has a lot of privately educated children or children who would have gone private if they hadn’t got a place - so not promoting social mobility at all!
Having said that there is one decent comprehensive in Cheltenham, but it’s in a very expensive area of town and not many people can afford to live there, so that’s just selective education by another name.
I honestly believe Gloucestershire should ditch the Grammar system for the sake of all the kids.

Bertrand you are wrong about the past. Poor children got Government grants to go to Grammar school back in those days my brothers all got those (1960s). There’s no way they could have gone without the grants.

My parents (born in 1940s) both benefitted from the grammar school system (and university grants). It enabled them to leave their small, rural, working class communities and become middle class professionals. Conversely, some of their siblings were negatively impacted by the stigma of attending the Secondary Moderns. It created division in both families, and a sense that one sibling was 'better' than the other. My dad's sister in particular, being the only one in 5 siblings who didn't get into the grammar school, felt the divide deeply and never really got over it.

Comprehensive schooling was the only option for me, and I do think it's a much fairer system.

Only very few places have grammar schools, thankfulky my LA doesn't have any, something I am very pleased about as I do not believe that a test at such a young age can tell you anything about their potential.

missyB do you mean direct grants? That was just an alternative way to fund the schools, it didn’t clear any of the other obstacles for children from low income families.

“Grammar schools have never been for poor children” is rubbish as a generalisation though accept it may have been true in some areas. When I was at grammar (in area where everyone sat 11+), there were plenty of poor children there - in fact a surprisingly high number given it was a very MC area. We didn’t have to pay for anything more than those at the secondary modern and uniforms came from same shop and were basically the same with different colour / logo - with secondhand uniform also sold cheaply by school.

At DD’s grammar, there is also a mix of people but the common factor is parents with high aspirations for their kids (either to match their own background or wanting better for their DC), some of which have made big sacrifices to get their kids in (eg moving home, driving DC long distances, spending hours helping their kids).

One thing that did put me off when we went to an open evening was that I asked the girl showing us round why she chose to go there and she said “because my parents wanted me to” which I just thought was so sad. Whereas I was at the time preferring the local comp for DD (ease of travel, local friends and a good reputation) but she chose the grammar. But now DS at local comp I wish we had encouraged DS more to try for the grammar as he would then be surrounded mainly by boys wanting to learn rather than boys trying to do as little as possible and teasing anyone who wants to work hard.

this lovely my brothers got grants for their uniforms and travel - the Grammar was in the next town. We were really poor, these days we would be classed as living in poverty, they literally couldn't have gone to that school without the grants. They then got grants to go to University. So in those days I do believe Grammars helped social mobility, however I'm not at all sure the same could be said for these days.

Direct grant schools were different, I think? When they were abolished some became state schools and some private (eg, Haberdashers girls, which my neighbour was attending at the time). At DG schools most people paid but local authorities paid for a certain number (I think).

bert

My dh managed it all right, was very poor. He had sunday clothes and school uniform and was raised by a sp Dad.
The difference was that GS used to provide social mobility, there was no having tutors to pass the test, kids just got accepted through academic achievement. Rather than hot housed by rich people who didn't want to pay, taking the places of those who need them. If you can afford private but take grammar places you are cunts.

Yes that's right and lots of them were grammar schools which is why I wondered if it was what missy meant. But it obviously wasn't! Those grants are interesting missy, I don't think that was the norm everywhere!

There is lots of very interesting research into poor and disadvantaged children in “old style” grammar schools. Of course they are always examples of such children doing very well- but as a cohort it is a very different story. For example, a significant number (i’ll dig the figures out in a bit) were “early leavers” - that is they left either before O levels or with very few qualifications. It is not a simple picture-either then or now.

There were discretionary grants for school uniform. If anyone’s read The Family from One End Street, there’s a chapter where Mr Ruggles applies for one for Kate, and is initially turned down because he wrote that he had one child, not five by mistake. Even when they do get the grant, they still have to rely heavily on gifts and “making do and mending”.

I'm in Kent, two of my children go to grammar and the 3rd is taking the 11+ in Sept. Tbh it wasn't until a few years ago that I found out grammar schools were not all over the country.

Here the grammar school is definitely a mixed bag of social classes. We live in a very rural area and the catchment fit the school is huge. Several of the pupils I know come from ‘poorer’ backgrounds and no one I know tutored their kids to get in, although I know that happens in many grammar schools. The advantage of the grammar over the local comp (also weirdly called a ‘grammar’) is a wider choice of subjects. The other local secondary is tiny and only offers the basic subjects. There is a grant to help for uniforms and books and school meals. I’m not pro grammar per se, but Am glad my child had an opportunity to access greater range of subjects and opportunities . Living very rurally comes with its own problems.

I live in a grammar school area. My DD has just started her 11+ tuition. We live in Wirral and there are 4 here, with a further 2 selective catholic schools.

There are also a few in the Trafford area of Manchester too.

I remember the Family from One End Street! ! Yes my parents had 6 of us kids which is possibly why my brothers got the grants. There wasn't a grammar for us girls to go to - not that I would have passed the 11+ anyway!