Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

None in my part of London. I was talking with my sister (NW) recently about this as there are grammars in her area and we both thought what we had was standard throughout the UK.

I suspect we could debate for a very long time on the impact on society of grammars in the past, good and bad. The modern version of them is very different. They are dominated by middle class kids. Social mobility is not enabled by them and by putting money into them, there is less to support all the other children in non-grammars.

This website has a clear agenda of course but this is a good summary of the argument against expanding the grammar system again.

comprehensivefuture.org.uk/flawed-report-attempts-prove-grammar-schools-less-advantaged-pupils/

@LemonRedwood

If you're thinking of Watford Grammar, both the boys' and girls' schools are partially-selective academies

Our 4 local grammars in Essex are academies. Being an academy doesn’t stop them from being grammars.

We still have them in Gloucester/Cheltenham. Two boys Grammars, two girls, and one Co Ed. However we also have comprehensives so not everyone takes the 11+ and primary schools definitely don’t prepare for it. Most children who take it have private tutors from about year 4, it’s very big business round here.

@fedup21

Regardless, neither Watford Grammar School for Boys, nor Watford Grammar School for Girls are grammar schools. They haven't been for a long time.

@ethelredonagoodday there are four actual 11+ grammars in North Yorkshire : Ermysted boys and Skipton girls, Heckmondwike and Ripon.

All others are called grammar but private (eg Leeds) or now comps (eg Harrogate)

Heckmondwike is in West Yorkshire, as are the grammar schools in Halifax. North Yorkshire has 3 grammar schools.

There are no grammar schools in South Yorkshire.

Regardless, neither Watford Grammar School for Boys, nor Watford Grammar School for Girls are grammar schools. They haven't been for a long time.

Fair enough. You seemed to be making the point that they weren’t grammars because they were academies.

Cheltenham is much preferable to Gloucester, only one grammar in Cheltenham, and super selective which doesn’t adversely affect the local comprehensives very much. In Gloucester 4 grammars which leave the alternative city schools as de facto secondary moderns. And each grammar has expanded recently. Terrible system.

In Cheltenham many of the grammar school intake would have gone private otherwise, so it’s hardly enabling social mobility, and in Gloucester it’s crippled the city academies.

@fedup21

Watford Grammar School for Boys (commonly abbreviated as WBGS) is a partially selective academy for boys in Watford in Hertfordshire, England. The school and its sister school, Watford Grammar School for Girls, descend from a Free School founded as a charity school for boys and girls by Elizabeth Fuller in 1704. Despite its name, the school accepts boys of all abilities, although approximately a third are selected for academic or musical aptitude, and brothers of existing pupils are also guaranteed places. Its results are among the highest achieved by non-grammar state schools in England.[1]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, I have to admit that up until about 20 years ago I didn't realise that grammar schools still existed in parts of the country . In Somerset they were abolished in1978, just as I was about to go to secondary school. At age 10 I aware of teachers at my primary and other adults saying that the 11 plus and grammar schools were being abolished. At the time I did not realise that this was due to our local/county council voting against them; I thought it was a national thing. It was only 20 years later when a friend who had moved from a different county mentioned he had been to a grammar that I was aware that they were still existing in other areas.Totally giving my age away here

Both the Watford Grammars are grammars in the sense that is being used on this thread, in that they are selective state schools with entrance test requirements. They started off as foundation schools long before compulsory educations, became grammars, then comprehensive, then selective, although with some distance-based and sibling entrance.

I don’t know how many of the other schools that are ‘grammars’ in the sense of this thread admit any children outside ability, so don’t know how unusual their status is.

They’re not counted in the 163 grammar schools that keeps being cited on here.

@Doubleraspberry They are dominated by middle class kids. Social mobility is not enabled by them and by putting money into them, there is less to support all the other children in non-grammars.

Not in Bexley they arent, they are blue collar off spring and the off spring of migrants largely. The middle class kids go to fee paying indes or the superselectives.

This use of 'middle class' is creeping in when people are anything but middle class.

I grew up in Surrey. My older brothers took the 11+ and went to grammar school but it had been abolished - in our county anyway - by the time I was 11 (mid 70s) so I just went to the local comp and then on to the local sixth form college which had been the grammar school that my brothers attended.

There are many partially selective schools like Watford Boys or Girls... A bit daft to compare attainment to genuine comps. Just like you wouldn’t compare them to fully selective schools.

Yeah, it's not really a thing in lots of places. In Cheshire when I was growing up everyone seemed to take it and it was a big deal as there are lots of great grammar schools around there.

Don't know where else in the country it's still being used.

‘Middle class’ includes people on lower incomes in professions, as the article I linked to makes clear. Not saying they are people who can afford private school.

Bexley Grammar School has 7.1% of pupils who have been on FSM at any point in the last six years. The national average is 28.6%.

No grammar schools where I was brought up and non where we live now.
FWIW the 2 most successful people I know both failed their 11+ and didn’t get into grammar.

This use of 'middle class' is creeping in when people are anything but middle class.

I don’t know about Bexley but in Sutton grammar schools have high proportion of ethnic minorities and EAL students. I’d say they’re mostly middle class, though, with highly educated parents in professional jobs and own houses etc.

“Not in Bexley they arent, they are blue collar off spring and the off spring of migrants largely.”

Migrants are frequently middle class- I do hope this is not too much of a shock to you.....

There’s none where I live now but three where I grew up and I went to one of them 👍 I feel I did much better for going to one as it’s not just about the pupil it’s about others around them and the attitude of the teachers. There was a real work ethic in my school and it was quite embarrassing to get less than a C. At my son’s school a C is a real celebration 🥳 Glad he’s left now!

Both the Watford Grammars are grammars in the sense that is being used on this thread, in that they are selective state schools with entrance test requirements.

They are partially selective. You do not have to sit a test to go to either school. (I'm not saying it won't help though.)

My child will be going to a Gloucestershire grammar in September; I’m a bit puzzled as to why some posters think grammars deprive other schools of funds? His school is actually in the late 2800’s of 3099 secondary academies in terms of funding, highest to lowest. Partly that’s because they have a terribly low proportion of pupil premium children and obviously that needs to be addressed locally.

Our grammars are superselective so we get lots of kids shuttled in from as far as Swindon, Worcester, Bristol. I’d like local catchments to be prioritised.

Most comps here are not good, so realistically there isn’t much choice but to participate unless I expected him to tolerate the same shit behaviour and disruption he’d had from other kids at primary. He had c. 20 hours tutoring in total - mostly to cover the Y6 maths involved in the test, which is sat two weeks into Y6 - and ended up with a rank that comfortably got him a place.
It’s the private school kids, tutored front Y3 that take a lot of the places and of course it’s the cohort as a whole that sets the level, there is no ‘pass’ score as such; getting a place depends on any child’s score, ranked against everyone else’s.

The nearest one to us is about 25 miles away and not easy to get to. Even though we make catchment by a mile nobody round here would go as they wouldn't think of going so far for school.
It's a large town too, so not out in the stix.
If you don't have them and it's not part of the local culture, then they don't exist to some people.

I did say that you could get into the Watford Grammars by other means! But they are what we’re talking about here in that they both have entrance tests that are sat by kids from miles away and that are tutored.

The whole school situation is murky as hell in many places.