Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

In Kent primary schools are specifically forbidden to tutor for the 11+. Only a couple of practice papers allowed.
The idea is that the test is one of potential not knowledge- so any tutoring is unnecessary.. Which is complete bollocks, obviously. But that is the received wisdom.

I thought that most people would at least know about them.

163 in the UK.
Surprised. I thought there would be more than that!

Just to add - Top set Maths at my DC's school are expected 9,8 and maybe 7; one sat Further Maths, the other didn't because the Students didn't want to - they preferred to concentrate on consolidating and making sure of those very top grades.
DC's school used to do Latin - another Comp in town now does Latin (I am disappointed that Latin went at DC's school). All of the Comps offer at least 2 MFL.

But the huge advantage is: students like my DS who were great at MAths/Science but very dyslexic could get the great grades in the subjects they were good at and be really stretched, whilst the school still catered to his struggles with English. And in addition they offer great Vocational subjects - Hairdressing and Plumbing. And even my most intolerant DD appreciates having been taught with a mixture of students, and will miss the "not very bright" boy she sat next to in History - he made her laugh.

No grammar schools here - Derbyshire

In Kent primary schools are specifically forbidden to tutor for the 11+.

Which, of course, makes the inequality even worse. Those with money/engaged parents can do tutoring outside school. The kids of those without, havn't a hope in hell's chance of passing it.

Doing it in school would make it fairer and give a better chance to the bright kids from disinterested families.

motheroffourcats

There are 4 in Hertfordshire.

There are no grammar schools remaining in Hertfordshire.

If you're thinking of Watford Grammar, both the boys' and girls' schools are partially-selective academies having previously been comprehensives, before that they were grant-maintained and before that was when they were grammar schools.

If the other two you're thinking of are Dame Alice Owen's and St Clement Danes, as gets listed on some mid-informed websites, then they are both academies having previously been comprehensive.

*mis-informed

I know what grammar schools are, and the 11+.

However, there are no grammar schools where I live.

Infact this list suggests there are only 163 grammar schools in England, mostly - though not all - in the south: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

It's only in limited areas. It's never featured anywhere I live.

“Doing it in school would make it fairer and give a better chance to the bright kids from disinterested families“
Well, it wouldn’t really, unless you found a way to ban outside tutoring. Because privileged kids would still get it as well as the in school preparation.

My parents took the 11+ and they're both in their mid seventies, I grew up thinking this was an old thing. Only when I had children and looked into education that I realised this was still happening around the country. We don't have Grammar Schools in my area.

@kazzyhoward

Your experience of your comp is not alone sadly.
It's been the experience of my family members too. Ie the bright child subjected to bullying, fearing school everyday. Not supported by the school or teachers and then the potential lost.

BTW a report came out by the education body and it said the primary schools in grammar areas do not do enough to support children on fsm etc to get into the system ie dc with no parental backing.
They are looking at ways for primary schools to help the child, as well as more out reach from grammars themselves.

It has been identified that a lack of support from the primary is effectively removing the ladder from poor dc.
In the old days the teachers could identify potential students and help them.
This was regardless of background, based on a range of factors including grades. This enabled many very poor disadvantaged dc get into grammar.

No Grammar Schools in Scotland

How ironic OP that you are surprised that your DH doesn't know about grammar schools when you are ignorant of the school system for the majority of children in England.

No grammar schools in any county I've lived and my DC wouldn't have a clue what the 11+ is, why would they?

“BTW a report came out by the education body and it said the primary schools in grammar areas do not do enough to support children on fsm etc”

Could you link, please?

@Fragalino Some grammars also make an effort - in my area some will admit pupil premium children with exam scores up to 10% lower than the general cut off.

It has been identified that a lack of support from the primary is effectively removing the ladder from poor dc.
In the old days the teachers could identify potential students and help them.
This was regardless of background, based on a range of factors including grades. This enabled many very poor disadvantaged dc get into grammar.

This is a bit of a myth - working class kids (as opposed to lower middle class kids), still faced huge barriers to accessing Grammar schools. They didn't have as ready access to books at home. Their parents might not even encourage them to sit the test. And in my Mother's case when she passed her name wasn't read out at school as the school had judged that someone "like her" couldn't pass. She then got to Grammar school and discovered it was full of middle class pupils who followed rules she had never learnt, weren't as well prepared as a lot of pupils from her primary school, often were in "cliques" with teachers i.e. the communists. And often the pull of family and school resulted in them leaving school early - or like my Mother being expelled.
There is a lot of evidence of the struggles working class students have at University - I am quite sure there was just as much at Grammar schools.

And nowadays in Grammar school areas, a lot of pupils come from the local Prep schools.

I can't link on phone and it's been posted before Bertrand on threads you have been on. That's when I read it... Did you not read it?

It would have been by Sutton Trust, if your genuinely interested

Jo Jo that's brilliant. I wonder how long that's been policy the Sutton Trust thing (social mobility watchdog) made recommendations a few years ago.

How ironic OP that you are surprised that your DH doesn't know about grammar schools when you are ignorant of the school system for the majority of children in England.

Also ironic that her GS education has left her unable to research basic facts and instead promoted her to ask to be spoon fed by MP posters.

I'm in Kent and our primary does nothing re the 11+ tests beyond advising the parents of dates etc.

We are in a fairly low income/high fsm school and I was shocked how few pupils took the Kent test especially as our grammar schools aren't overly subscribed. There does seem to be a feeling that the grammar schools are for "others". DD had some friends who might have wanted to take the tests (and many would have done well enough to go to grammar) but were talked out of it by their parents as its "not for them". The few children who are going to the grammar schools are mostly children of immigrants with involved parents.

We hear a lot about pushy parents/tutors etc but little how the education of bright children can be limited by the low aspirations of their parents.

I'm a single parent - I paid £40 for 11+ worksheets for DD and got her to work on them weekly in Y5 mainly for VR & NVR that wasn't taught in school. It was enough to get her in - I don't expect such an easy ride with DD2 who is also clever, but spectacularly lazy when it comes to school work and has anxiety issues.

The Sutton Trust says that the grammar school system is very divisive. I am pretty sure-although happy to be proved wrong-that it does not recommend primary schools actively prepare children for the exam.

Molly that's your mum's experience I have family experience and they faced barriers, but not insurmountable. Everyone faces barriers.