My idea for the primary school day - any good?

[pfrench]

I think schools should start at 8 and finish at 4.30.

Children have lessons until 1.30, with two equal sized breaks for snack and lunch and play. Teachers teach the core subjects of English, maths, and others such as history, geography, and RE in those hours.

The afternoons are taught by specialists. Sports, dance/gymnastics, music, drama, art, design technology and computing. Two chunks of afternoon learning. Older children might have chance to do two lessons of a particular interest or skill in order to specialise/take external exams etc.

Teachers can't leave the school until 4.30 - these are still directed hours. In that time they mark and plan. They also have the opportunity to take children out for pre-learn, or intervention lessons. They lose out on some of the above stuff if this happens, but that's what happens in lots of schools anyway.

At 4.30 there could still be an after school club for those who need it, but everyone eats breakfast at school. That's part of primary school learning - communal eating. Also at 4.30 onwards there could be more specialist club type interests run, or even Cubs/Brownies/Scouts run from the school too.

Children go home at 4.30 or 6pm having had good subject teaching by teachers and by specialists. The focus on the arts and sports in the afternoon encourages interests in those things for continuing outside school. If things like extra dance lessons or Scouts or whatever ran from 5 - 6pm, that would also free up evening time at home.

Teachers focus properly on the stuff they are confident in. They can choose to teach some of the afternoon subjects if they want/are specialists. They get their marking and planning done in the school day, they take less work home and are more on it for the next day.

Parents don't have to worry about childcare around school hours so much. Families get their evenings freed up a bit.

What do you reckon? Should I be Secretary of State for Education?

On the one hand I quite like the idea - means home is just for relaxing/catching up etc.

On the other it sounds a bit tiring! And I’m assuming staff meetings etc would have to take place outside these hours?

It just makes me a bit sad to think of those tiny children pretty much doing a workday with no change of scenery/environment ❤️

Rogue heart!

I dont thinknschools can afford to put this in to place. It does soundclike prep school but prep schools (round here) have 2.5 times more funding and about 5 weeks more holiday.
I think there is a case for better wrap around care as a standard though.

But schools aren’t childcare so that’s a separate issue is it not?

I always find it irritating when people think that they alone have come up with the magic answer to a complex issue that they clearly know a very limited amount about.

Using your model teachers directed hours would rise by about 30% so presumable terms and conditions would be altered to reflect this with a pay rise - you'd also need to double the staff.
Schools are already facing budget cuts and being forced to make staff redundant so your model is completely unsustainable.
I'm in school at 7am for a 8.45am start - your model would mean that I'd be in work at 6.15am.
Staff meetings would have to start at 5pm.
Sorry OP - your idea doesn't get my vote

I would really like to see the return of specialist staff/ teachers to mainstream state schools. I think it would be so beneficial to children to experience really high quality PE, Art and Music. You can be a very, very good teacher and be hopeless at PE (personal experience 😆🙈).

Most children in my school use some form of breakfast club/ after care so the timings wouldn’t be too different.

This sounds like the crap that Michael Gove was spouting when he was education secretary. Basically parents are crap so the government will do all the parenting for them.

At least one of the classrooms at my DCs' schools is where the children eat packed lunch (and I think it applies to quite a few other years, this is the one I have direct experience of).

So I don't think that is really so odd.

I would object to my younger (Y1) and SEN (Y3) DCs being taught by so many different people. This would not be good for them.

If you have a child that thrives in 'real' learning e.g. maths and english but dreads anything arts or sports related they are going to dread every single afternoon. On the flipside children who thrive in creative work/sports but struggle academically are going to find every single morning torture.

Many schools do already break it up like this, though. Mornings are for phonics, writing and maths (some of it disguised) and afternoons are for "topic work" and specialist things (which all include literacy and numeracy).

But schools aren’t childcare so that’s a separate issue is it not?

A lot of people do consider school to be childcare, which is why there are so many threads about more hours,less holidays or even year round schooling .

My children already attend a school with hour from 8:15-4:15.
They have core subject lessons till 2pm and then specialist teachers come in to teach art,drama,dance,ict and sport.
Key stage one finish at 3pm key stage two at 4:15
This is a state primary school and seems to work really well

I think it's generally sounds good although the starting at 8am might be tricky in rural areas - ok if you are driving but buses might not be running yet/children would be walking in pitch black in winter.

I'd also also make the afternoon sessions a bit more relaxed (or maybe optional) for the reception DC as some will have only just turned 4 and be tired.

I think we already push children into formal education too early, 5 in Scotland where I am but 4 in England. To have a school day of that length in primary school is way too long - being in after school care is different because it’s much less structured but my 6 and 8 year old would struggle to be in education from 8 til 4.30 - I don’t understand the desire to have small children in formal education for more than 35 hours a week.

I would do school 8:30-3:30 and compulsory work hours for the world 9-3 , apart from teachers as they need to do 8:27-3:33

There’s no ideal solution to this. I’ve spent hours, as a FT working parent, trying to figure out how you balance home/kids/work and this is a good as I can come up with.

lighthearted

No. Sounds bloody awful. School days do not need to be any longer as is. Let them be kids!

Agree with those saying it sounds like a prep school- quite similar to DS school anyway.
In infants he was tired and needed the 3.30 collection, so I would say it’s more suited to age 7+.
His fees are £7k per year- how much do schools get per child in the State sector? It sounds expensive!

schools vary all over Europe

some start early and finish for late lunch Germany
some have 1-2 hour lunch breaks with expectation you go home Holland
some have similar lunch breaks but with food France
some have no homeowrk in Primary some have 2-3 hours a week
some only do sports/ art in afternoon, some expect sports to be done in own time
some have wrap around care , others have virtually no care
some expect kids to get to and fro from school independently by age 7 others expect collection until 10 ( this only appears to be UK)
some have wednesday afternoons off
in some countries school is 8-12 then 3-4,30
most have 12-16 weeks holiday a year, no country in Europe has less than 6 weeks in summer some have 10 weeks plus

Wow this thread makes me feel a bit crap. LP here, drop kids off at breakfast club at 7:30 4 mornings a week. I've recently had to increase my hours at work so 3 days a week they'll be in after school club too.

I like this. Sounds like it will increase the chances of the children’s success

My child's school has 600+ children - they have lunchtime and playtimes in three shifts as the hall isn't big enough to seat them all. Likewise there aren't art or sports facilities/space for them all at once.
I like elements of your plan -
Lessons in the morning and arts/sports in the afternoon, which is roughly what they do anyway. I don't see how any school can afford two lots of teachers every afternoon though.

OP didn’t return?

Let me guess-you're in a job that means leaving them 8-4:30pm would suit you.

It comes across as people who have wonderful ideas on how to change the admission orders to a school they want which basically boils down to "change it to give me a better chance of getting in".

No, I think it wouldn't be good for the children. One of mine would have been okay, although it would have stopped her after school stuff which she loved, so ultimately it would have been less good for her than doing her own choosing after school things.
The other two it would have been dreadful. They both needed time to get in, wind down and then time after that. If they didn't finish until 4:30, they'd be struggling to have enough wind down time.

I don't think it would increase success. More likely burn out the top end keen workers and frustrate and upset the ones who struggle.

9-3pm is fine, but let's increase holidays to 3 weeks at Christmas (and perhaps 2 at the Winter half term) and 10 weeks in the summer. With, for low income families, a provision for meals through the holidays and 1-2 weeks provided of a fun holiday club of their choice in the summer holiday. We can pay for that with the savings of the extra week's holiday.

Sounds like hell for my DS. Dyspraxia makes the formal side of learning difficult as it is literally painful to put pen to paper. Traditional team/ ball sports are also deeply unpleasant for him to process.

When he's home by 3:25, he needs to quietly chill out and unwind. We are busier later in the evenings, but he needs that quiet in between. He is active and sporty in solo sports that suit him and don't require processing as a team or predicting balls.

A significant reason for becoming a SAHM was that he struggled with the length of the day and busyness of the wrap around care environment.

It's a bad plan for too many children, and there isn't the budget, staffing or facilities to make it logistically viable anyway.

Sod that! I want to spend time with my child!
Does no one remember how long the school day seems when you are little and how much you need to get home and chill out?

Children start formal education too early in this country in my opinion, there's plenty of years to be tied into a time table, four or five is too soon.

@azulmariposa, the Finnish system you mention sounds terrific, I vote for that!