Do you agree with parent A or parent B?

[KitKat1985]

Right I'll try to write this impartially. DD1 is 4 and has autism. She is not really that interested in a lot of foods, and a very fussy eater, and subsequently is slim, almost bordering on the skinny side. Because she's not very interested in food, she tends to come to the table at meal times and eats for a bit and then wander off to the sofa or to her toys still nibbling food from her plate. Parent A keeps telling DD1 that she should eat at the table with us and her younger sister as it's polite and good manners, and also makes less mess. The problem is that DD1 tends to refuse to come back to the table and has a meltdown the more the issue is pushed, and then refuses to eat anymore at all either at the table or anywhere else. Parent B thinks in the grand scheme of things and wider context of DD1's autism the priority is for DD1 to eat and that it's better for her to eat on the sofa etc than not much at all, even though it's not ideal, and that parent A needs to relax about their 'only eating meals at the table' rule. Parent A thinks parent B is being soft and encouraging bad habits, and is fed up of cleaning food mess up from all over the house. Do you agree with parent A or parent B?

Parent B

Although I would work on an alternative place where she can eat, wh8ch meets her needs, rather than wandering around with food.

Like a pp we have a tray www.amazon.co.uk/IKEA-Klipsk-Tray-Breakfast-Foldable/dp/B01M0PVB8K/ref=asc_df_B01M0PVB8K/?hvlocphy=1006595&linkCode=df0&hvptwo&psc=1this&hvnetw=g&hvadid=339588428524&hvpone&hvlocint&hvpos=1o3&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl&hvqmt&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=pla-697385424239&hvrand=11834047740881518458 and ds is allowed to sit in the front room with it.

He does sit at the table for some meals or part of meals, and because the pressure is off he joins in (although sometimes finds it hard to eat).

I think when it comes to food issues, agreeing what your strategy is beforehand is essential...otherwise it adds to anxiety around meal times.

Parent B. Often some autistic children cannot comprehend the world in the same way as the rest of us. They may not understand convention or other people's points of view. Parent A is hitting their head against a brick wall trying to make a point which may never be understood and consequently provoking meltdowns which negatively impact the live of the entire family. Trying do understand and manage some of the aspects of autism as a whole might help rather than focusing of this one aspect which is aggravating both parents and creating more stress most likely making it harder to deal with other issues as well.

I was Parent B. Until the mice came.

B. If the child didn’t have autism then I would be firmly with parent A. But for a child to be diagnosed with autism by 4 then they are not just on the spectrum.

Parent B. Possibly with caveats such as using a tray on the sofa or plastic mat on the floor. If you’ve got into a habit where the table is associated in the child’s mind with conflict, then you need to break that. Could you try the whole family having a picnic on the living room floor? Or does she prefer to eat without being watched?

OP it's really hard.

We've never had DS tested for autism but given it runs in the family and behaviour we experienced we never felt the need to.

When it came to eating, there was a whole load of issues. Being at the table and what foods he would even eat.

I'm not sure that parents with NT kids understand how stubborn non NT kids can be.

That said, when it came to food we stuck to our guns (pretty much).

Food was to be eaten at the table. To be clear we had to make concessions on what was eaten - cheese sandwiches 3 days in a row or grilled plain chicken in a soft tortilla for a week for example.

However we did have an incentive, that if food was eaten at the table (all of it) then "supper" would be provided later (apple slices, carrot sticks, bread sticks etc) away from the table.

Every child is different and you have to find your own way, but I'd be wary of "giving in" too quickly at such a young age and maybe try to find some compromise that still reenforces "social norms".

I'm much further down the line and tbh I think it's paid dividends. Food issues are pretty minimal now and "table talk" over the years has, I feel been instrumental in helping social skills. Most importantly, DS has had to learn that "opting out" because you don't "want to" isn't an option (about family meals or anything else - so please think about the wider ramifications if you normalise a "do as you please" approach).

Caveat to all the above - autism presents in many different ways and what works for one child isn't going to work for another, but please don't underestimate what they can do when you find the right "mechanism".

Parent b. I have a child with asd

Whatever works for your asd child is right for them.

Should have posted on the special needs board op.

A lot of asd behaviors are exacerbated by stress. If eating at a table is a stress for your child then reduce the stress and meet the need. Often, it will then become less important for that specific need to be met.

There will be some posters who will push routine because that works for their child. Not all asd children have the same profile of needs so of course different things work for different children.

Always look at the big picture. Fwiw, whenever I find myself saying "but they have to xyz" I'm generally being swayed by other people expectations, not what is right for my child

The thing is, are you excusing your child's eating behaviours as being because of her additional needs, so therefore feel you should just accept it, or are you using their additional needs as an excuse to not have firm boundaries in place? Only you know the answer to that.
As a Senco, I so often hear parents say their ASD child won't do this, eat that, yet in school they do. Is it down to parental expectations? I know as a mum I probably had less strict rules than my DDs had in school, and I think that's true in a lot of cases.
So, to answer who's right. The parent who thinks the child should be taught to sit at the table IF that has never been implemented, or the parent who thinks the opposite because you have tried for a reasonable length of time to implement it. Neither of you are right if you've not even tried just in case your child becomes upset.

As the parent of an asd child I am with parent a. They are told what is expected of them from an early age.
When we went to his specialist school at age 11 the headmaster said 'we know he has other NT siblings.. it shows.. he hasn't been wrapped in cotton wool. He will do well. So many parents make the mistake of pandering to all the idiosyncrasies of autism - but as you haven't it will make his life easier '
My son is has moderate/severe autism and works in a NT cafe 4 days a week. I put that down to NOT pandering to specifics like food.

Ds1 now 8 has strong autistic traits, not yet ventured towards 'testing'.

HE has always been fussy and 2nd centile. from when he was out of a high chair he would stand at the table and refuse to sit. After a while we gave in and he stood for meals for about 3 years. Now sometimes sits and sometimes stands.

My mil still makes a fuss about this every time they visit (along with my failure as a mother in 1000 other ways) but this solution improved our lives hugely.

Ds1 remains adverse to certain food textures -e.g. all meat, fish, any meat substitutes with meaty texture - but I have just accepted this too.

I don't 'pander' to my child smaller. Food is a massive stress for him and he's been underweight most of his life. There are areas I will push him on but food isn't one of them because if he doesn't eat, it makes him ill. He doesn't recognise hunger and has zero interest in eating.

Glad your child is doing well though. It's a shame you felt the need to denigrate other parents to make that point.

Our son is severely autistic.

At age 4, we were Parent B. It was more important to us that our son ate something, anything, than create a battleground about what he was eating or where. He grazed - food on a plate on the table or bookshelf, he'd help himself to a mouthful and wander, returning to the plate to get more. At this stage he wasn't eating meals alongside us, it wasn't the right food for him.

Eating school dinners helped our son in two ways - understanding that groups of people sit to eat, and also providing him with peers who would eat whatever was put in front of them. It widened his food range considerably.

Our son turns 10 this summer and we are now a combination between Parents A&B. Main mealtimes are at the table, and he loves to eat alongside us rather than on his own. But snacks are still 'grazed', with a designated spot for his plate or fruitbowl to which he'll return as he wants.

As a parent of an autistic child I agree with parent B. I understand why parent A feels like they do but you have to learn to pick your battles with autistic children.

My son ended to tube fed as he developed a severe aversion to food after being forced to try food at nursery that he didn’t like. Seeing him willingly starve himself to death without intervention made me never challenge him on food again. He eats what he wants, where he wants, when he wants. It’s not worth the battle.

I'm really saddened to see a senco suggesting different behaviours at home and school are due to parental expectations.

www.autism.org.uk/about/behaviour/school-home.aspx

I taught these children for 20 years. And never had a single child (however challenged) who didn't learn to sit at the table for class snack and school dinner within a few weeks of arriving at our school.

in fairness it's much easier for school staff to have these expectations and to calmly and carefully work towards them. We, after all, only have them for a few hours a day, and can send them home to their parents!

Parents used to be amazed when they found out what their kids would do at school. They genuinely (and quite reasonably) thought they weren't capable of these things. And once they knew they could, it didn't take long at all for them to achive the same at home.

It's possible to acknowledge your child's challenges and anxieties while still having expectations that they will manage some of these basic family social things. It's not easy, but with guidance, you'll get there.

I should be clear here I don't think I 'pander' to DD1. There's some things I really insist on (e.g, that she says please and thank you), and that she shares with her sister etc, and anything else that I think is important. But I do think I pick my battles more than DH sometimes and I think causing DD1 to have a meltdown because she eats some chips or similar on the sofa just isn't worth it when it's not causing any real harm.

Sara - my son would sit there fine but he just won't eat. Personally, my main aim is to get food into him. I do understand that if you're teaching, your main aim is to get the children to conform. Different goals.

I'm not at all surprised to see attitudes like that from teachers and senco working with children with additional needs, Grasspigeons I come across it all the time at work and it is this sort of attitude that contributed to ds getting stomach ulcers and losing weight. He would sit at the table in the dining hall though...yay.

I'm on the fence. I'm more of a pick your battles parent, However; our toddler sen group suggested that our children need to learn their social behaviours from us and walking around with a plate of food would not be acceptable in (for example) the school dining hall.

For those who refused point blank to sit st the table, they used a timer. So they would work with the child to get them to sit at the table for a minute at a time (increasing as time went on) before they were allowed to get up and roam. And there was a very clear rule of eating was at the table. It was more a snack which allowed behaviours such as sitting at a table, waiting turns and please and thank you - expected behaviours - to be practised rather than forcing unwilling children to sit.

Our kids with additional needs often need more guidance than an nt child that rules can differ in different places. So while at home it is ok to leave the table with your plate and lie on the floor to eat, that won't be expected at school or in a restaurant. Until a child is capable of understanding that, the rules need to applied consistently.

Personally in your situation I would compromise and get a timer. Child sits at table until timer runs out then is allowed to eat wherever. But the amount of time is gradually increased so they learn how to interact with others at meal times.

@grasspigeons I agree, it’s very sad when even SENCO’s who should understand our children don’t seem to either.

Hmm. Sofa is fine but eating while walking around increases her risk of choking, so I would insist on her being seated.

B

@OrchiInTheSun - oh of course we worked on the food thing as well! We used all sorts of strategies, and you're right, it's a very difficult area. It was difficult not to yell YAY!!!! when we got a child to try a microscopic bit of a new food. But of course we had to stay absolutely chilled and calm!

And of course we worked intensely closely with parents to prioritise things that were important to them and to their family life. And the thing tat made a difference to most families and thrilled them most, was when they could go out for a meal as a whole family for the first time. So we did spend a LOT of time on behaviour and sensory programmes that enabled that (and of course that managed the children's anxiety).

It was a great job. So many rewards, and so many lovely families.

(and of course when we were helping children to sit at the table, it was with favoured foods - you don't start challenging their senses at this point!)

@saraclara Doesn’t work for all autistic children though. Teachers “helpfully” encouraging my son to try a microscopic piece of new food as you describe led to a total food refusal from him. He was hospitalised and tube fed when his weight dropped dangerously low and he still refused to eat a single thing. It took us YEARS to get back from that. So now when I tell his teachers don’t try and make him eat anything he doesn’t like and give them a list of what he doesn’t like I expect them to take it seriously and listen not tell me they know best and many children do these things fine at school but not at home.