If you are pro choice...

[Doubledoubledenim]

Name changed for this

I really want to ask some questions for anyone happy to answer about feelings on abortion. I don’t feel like its an approachable subject I can talk about IRL as everyone I know is venomously pro choice and if I start to put forward a view which isn’t the same as theirs they get really quite aggressive and defensive.

So, if you are pro choice does that include late term abortions or would you feel differently about one at 6 weeks to one at 24 weeks? Also a lot of people say it’s the woman’s body so her choice - would that reason still stand for later abortions or would you think it would need to be a serious medical reason for baby/mum to justify this? Or does pro choice mean pro choice for you meaning any reason and any time within the legal limit is ok.

I hope I’ve worded this in a completely inoffensive way as I really don’t want to upset anyone it might affect.

I think when considering this you need to look at the alternative. I read the statistics years ago. Banning abortion doesn't lead to fewer abortions, just to more women dying.

"Amnesty International reports that suicide now accounts for 57 percent of deaths of pregnant females ages 10-19 in El Salvador. Because in an attempt to terminate their pregnancies, women are “ingesting rat poison or other pesticides, and thrusting knitting needles, pieces of wood and other sharp objects into the cervix.”

No one's asking you to like it but the opposite to pro-choice isn't pro-life. It's pro-forced birth and pro-dead women. Let's call it what it is.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a10033320/pro-life-abortion/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBHBZ&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2s6qJer1t0Y4i0Bl-oZxEO9FEbjLXBhqnNAfVGpdKpmRitVd8cfc0sPBI

Admittedly I do think the buffer of the law makes people more able to be pro-choice. However I do actually have enough faith in women to believe that if it were available the vast majority wouldn't have a later-term abortion for flippant reasons.

I'm pro-life. Honestly the idea of a late term abortion makes me want to cry.

Does the thought of women killing themselves or dying in botched illegal abortions also make you cry Pinkyy?

@Pinkyyy even if the baby won't survive past childbirth? Or will die in the womb? The mother could have no idea when this could happen and be forced to carry a foetus for potentially weeks without knowing when her baby will die?

What about women that are fleeing domestic abuse? The family courts can be truly awful to women and children in these circumstances. Why should a child be forced in to an unhappy life, a woman tied to an abusive ex trying to navigate a happy life for a child? What if a woman found out the father of her child was a child abuser? What if the woman's mental health had deteriorated so seriously that she was in no fit state to become a parent? What if the woman had a very slim chance of surviving childbirth? There are so many possibilities for the minuscule percentage of late term abortions. Cry away but I'm sure the women that have to take this path are crying more.

In all honesty I don't think that's a valid argument. I do however see a difference between choosing to end your own life, and ending someone else's.

@beargryllshasabigrope if the child won't survive then I don't consider it to be a termination. You are not choosing to end a life which would otherwise be fine.

Also to be honest with you, killing the baby isn't going to fix any of those scenarios.

Why isn't it valid? A few posts up somebody has shared a link about what happens to women in countries where abortion is illegal. If I found out I was pregnant tomorrow I would terminate as soon as possible. If I was denied that right I would be suicidal and would attempt a DIY job. Is that ok with you?

Pinkyyy what do you suggest happens to all these children who are born to parents who don’t want them, can’t cope with them, don’t have the resources to deal with a seriously disabled child etc?

@Pinkyyy actually it could help all of those situations. And if a child could be born, alive, with life changing disabilities or conditions that would impact on both them and their parents for their entire life, however long or short it may be, then a late term abortion is a perfectly valid choice.

What makes me want to cry is that even now, in 2019, women still aren't deemed capable of making their own decisions. It's outrageous.

Of course a termination could help a woman fleeing an abusive relationship. It means she wouldn't have to be tied to him for the next 18+ years of her life.

@Bluestitch and neither would the child

@Bluestitch of course it wouldn't be okay with me- I'm against abortion.

@SoyDora I suggest that the parents put the life of their child above whatever job/lifestyle choice they have prioritised over them. I suggest they enter into the adoption system. People know the what can happen if they have sex, abortion shouldn't be used as contraception. The vast majority of abortions are purely because the child is unwanted.

Pro-choicers are always so quick to use the extreme circumstances to defend their stance. It's not so easy to defend killing a healthy baby for no reason, is it.

It's a completely unnecessary procedure. Save for the vanishingly rare instances where a pregnancy is the result of rape or medical necessity to protect the the life of the mother.

You can't get pregnant by accident. You have to have sex first. Every tyoe of contraception states clearly that it's not 100% reliable, there is always a risk of pregnancy. If you're not mature enough to accept this risk, then you're not mature enough to be having sex in the first place.

As for being pro choice, I am, as long as it's for the reasons above. Saying you have to be desparate to consider a late term abortion is utter bollocks. It just encourages women to treat abortion as a form of quasi-contraception. Maybe don't get pregnant in the first place.

There is a double standard which exists that very few are prepared to talk about.

Pro choice would say that before 24 weeks

"it's not a baby at that stage, it's just a collection of cells".

Imagine the reaction on here if a woman posted that her partner had said to her after she miscarried.

If the baby is wanted it's a tragedy. If the baby is unwanted, thats fine, have an abortion.

"Because it's a woman's right to choose"

The reality is that we live in a society which promotes the destruction of unborn children. And abortion is treated as a form of contraception. In my office a girl has just taken a day off to have one. Her reason is that her new boyfriend of four months has booked a holiday for them both to Jamacia in September, and she

"doesnt want any belly in her holiday photos".

We need to be honest about what we are doing. We should be promoting responsability, not abortion. Preventing unwanted pregnancy would mean the procedure just wouldnt be necessary in the first place.

Flame me if you like.

LolaSmiles - I think realistically your views are fine and normal. I think a lot of the "as late as necessary" comments are a response to people (some on this thread) who want to stop abortion after 12 weeks or come up with these straw man examples of women having 24 week abortions because they couldn't fit an earlier abortion into their schedule as it clashed with a manicure. I think most of us just want the less than 1 % of abortions that happen very late for horrific and tragic reasons to be able to go ahead.

@Pinkyyy where are all these women that get to 30 odd weeks and just sit back and think 'oh actually, this motherhood shit isn't for me. Time to get to the clinic' ?

I trust women to make their own decisions regarding abortion. End of.

@Outoutout you have perfectly summarised my views. I completely agree.

There are choices available:
-not having sex
-contraception
-having a baby
-adoption system

I just don't support the choice to kill.

I suggest that the parents put the life of their child above whatever job/lifestyle choice they have prioritised over them

You’re missing my point. If someone doesn’t want a child, for whatever reason, it’s going to have a serious impact on the welfare of that child. Regardless of the circumstances of conception, the priorities of the parent etc. Forcing someone to give birth to a child they don’t want, for whatever reason, is not going to result in a stable, loving home life for that child in the vast majority of cases. Adoption is also not a magic solution (do you think there are many people queueing up to adopt a disabled child, for example?). So you can tell a reluctant parent that they need to priorities their child over their own wants/needs, but how would that child’s life be?

This is the exact reason why I can't ever say I'm pro choice again.

Just makes me sad.

Given the 23 weeks premature baby situation, I cannot come to terms with a situation where society does not rescue a baby from 23weeks onwards and put 100% effort into caring for that baby. Just as they would a 3 day old baby or a 3 month old baby.

What makes this baby's life less valued than that of a 23 premmie baby!!!!??? The parents get to decide!!!?? Why??

My mind cannot come to term with this. Heart breaking.

@beargryllshasabigrope that point was not about late term abortions. Once you carry a baby to 30 weeks- it should be a criminal offence to kill that baby.

Pinkyy you appear to be saying that a woman killing herself when pregnant would be upsetting for you, but only because the fetus will die too. Is that really your view?

My circumstances- I had severe hyperemesis with both my pregnancies. With my last one it was so bad my organs started to become affected. I spent a lot of the pregnancy in hospital. I was both physically and mentally depleted, and my labour was complicated by it too. I ended up with severe PND. I literally couldn't go through that again. I have 2 children I need to care for including one with additional needs. Adoption wouldn't be any help for me because my circumstances are not that I couldn't raise another child, but that I can't go through another pregnancy. What options should I have in your view in the event I became pregnant?

Have you read the link I've posted about @Outoutout and @Pinkyyy?

Given that banning abortions absolutely does not lead to fewer abortions, just more women dying from DIY and illegal operations, are you happy with that situation? There is no happy alternative. Just an equal number of abortions being carried out and more dead women. Would that please you? FFS!

I suggest they enter into the adoption system. - you know what history tells us happens to the adoption system without abortion, don't you? You know no system in any country copes with that number of unwanted babies and you start to get these overstretched and awful orphanages.

Our adoption system in this country is the way it is (with lots of loving adoptive parents and few babies) because there are very few healthy babies who just happen to have been born at the wrong time coming into the system. If abortion were illegal that would change and those babies wouldn't be automatically handed over to loving parents but to state run institutions.

You can't get pregnant by accident. You have to have sex first. Every tyoe of contraception states clearly that it's not 100% reliable, there is always a risk of pregnancy. If you're not mature enough to accept this risk, then you're not mature enough to be having sex in the first place

Ok. But in the cases where people have had sex, have got pregnant, and don’t want the baby, do you think forcing the mother to give birth to that child will result in happy outcomes for that child?