Which "class" - Lighthearted!

[dingdongdahlia]

So, my dh is very proud of his roots and is quite happy to tell everybody and anybody about how we're a working class family. Personally, I think class is quite an outdated concept but definitely think there are some things that are still considered wc/mc/us.

I've explained to dh that it's not as clear cut anymore and while he works a blue collar job, it's as much about lifestyle nowadays as your employment.

I say to my husband he's probably closer to middle class now because of tiny little things that make up our lifestyle but he denies it vehemently. I come from a very traditionally middle class family and he says he "dragged me down" (with a cheeky smile).

So, in the most lighthearted way possible, what do you think?

Dh works a very skilled manual job, he has an element of responsibility and although he achieved his role through an apprenticeship I would say his level of knowledge is pretty close to a masters in engineering. He calls himself a spanner monkey.

I have a professional role that is traditionally a middle class career.

We own our own home in a suburb of a city in the south coast. Four bed with garage, almost paid off (we're early 30s).

We eat out at least 10x a month at naice places and stay in nice hotels frequently as a couple (disclaimer: directly linked to my job).

We shop at Ocado and local independent butchers, greengrocers etc. Christmas meat is always bought from the butcher.

We have at least one foreign holiday a year with several other UK breaks throughout the year.

We have a cleaner (he hates this but hates a messy house more).

We have a bean to carafe coffee machine.

Our kids are young but it's looking like we will potentially send them to private school for secondary.

He snowboards and skis. Trying to convince me to take the kids on a skiing holiday (I'm not keen).

We own Barbour jackets (the wax variety that don't have the logo emblazoned all over it).

He's voted Tory in the past.

Obviously this is very lighthearted and a bit of a family joke. Just wanted to see what people think.

Where do I start?

The generalisation perhaps? Working class does not necessarily equate to poverty!

How many people earn enough money not to have to worry about it?

Do children really look around their classroom and feel socially inferior because they or their classmates may not run their democratic country?

I expect you will next say that all working class children are called Jayden or Chantelle, have shaved heads and live off convenience foods!

Margaret Thatcher was solidly lower middle class. Which is why the Kingmakers misread her so badly when they made her leader of the Conservative party in 1975.....,

Thatcher's father was not a grocer, he owned the shop. When Margaret Thatcher was a child her father was 'Justice of the Peace, president of the Chamber of Trade, President of Rotary, a director of the Grantham Building Society and of the Trustee Savings Bank, chairman of the local National Savings Movement, a governor of the local boys' and girls' grammar schools and chairman of the Workers' Educational Association'. He wasn't getting up and going to work in a shop every day to keep the family afloat, which is how the Conservatives try and portray him.

Tony Blair's father was a barrister, definitely not working class, but yes, he, Major & Brown can't be pinned into the into the public school attending politician group. Many of our current politicians can't, either. But for the ones who can't, I'd bet fair money on them being the only person from their school who is sitting in the Commons. In the 2010 Parliament, 20 MPs went to one school, Eton. 20. There are over 4000 schools in the UK. There is no comprehensive school sending 20 of their alumni to take 20 seats in one parliament.

Where do I start?

The generalisation perhaps? Working class does not necessarily equate to poverty!

No, you're right. Most jobs in retail and hospitality which pay minimum wage and use zero hour contracts are being done by the upper classes as a hobby. Most of the working class have earned their millions. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that it is the working class propping up the country by staffing the factories, shops, hotels etc., usually for not a great deal of money. It should be acknowledged and challenged as to why a certain class prodominantly holds these positions. Not all working class people are in poverty, but most people in genuine poverty are working class.

How many people earn enough money not to have to worry about it?

Many, many people don't worrry about how they're going to make it to the end of the month. Those who do worry, who are struggling to make ends meet even when they're actually in work, tend to be working class. The pay day loans companies now, the Provvy in the past, these don't prey on the families of barristers and doctors, but on traditionally working class families. Not all working class families worry about money, but most people who genuinely worry about how they're going to keep a house and food going for a month are working class.

Do children really look around their classroom and feel socially inferior because they or their classmates may not run their democratic country?

No, they probably don't. Their expectations won't ever be to be in the Cabinet (as one example). In working class comprehensives children are encouraged to work hard and get 'good' jobs, but what do they consider a good job? And then want are the kids in a nice independent grammar in the south being encouraged to aim for in their careers? And then there are schools such as Eton. What expectations are they setting for their kids? In the first example, a career in politics at a high level won't be expected, there won't be debating lessons or dinner parties with high ranking politicians. In the latter, there will.

I expect you will next say that all working class children are called Jayden or Chantelle, have shaved heads and live off convenience foods! I am working class. The working class is at a disgusting disadvantage from the word go, and yet any attempt to highlight this is stifled by accusations that somehow the working class itself is to blame for its disadvantages. It is a poorer, disadvantaged class, intentionally designed to be kept so by the upper classes. We should acknowledge that.

'The class you identify with is more the one you were brought up than are now I think. How you were brought up will always be there no matter how you live now'

I agree

I was bought up by working parents, accounts clerk and Bulider. Ordinary working class jobs. Lived in a comfortable owned semi, hols and car and the odd treats and hobbies were catered for.

Parents comfortable working class as I am.

They Always voted Tory though

Mr Ginyard on the other hand was born in his family home. Huge draughty country pile with 12 bedrooms. Parents came from similar backgrounds. DM went to finishing school in Switzerland never worked, DF wrote papers etc regarding his niche, sent to a famous boarding school from age 7 . He didn't go to uni but has a very elite career which he loves. A little the rebel of all his Oxbridge siblings.

The MC roots of my DP are completely understated unlike in the Op.

He wouldn't have a clue what a bling bean to shmeen carafe might be used for.

And would never discuss finances, school fee's etc.

Wish he'd spend some money on clothes though, he literally has string holding up his trousers

Do the working class really only work in retail and hospitality? What are nurses, teachers, administrators, bookkeepers, small shop owners, publicans, civil service staff. Aren’t they all working class? Do their children have a higher mortality rate than children of GPS, accountants, analysts?

I made precisely the same point pages ago SlipperOrchid, it was largely ignored then too.

On MN people want to believe that being WC is something to be derided, pitied and avoided, when for large swathes of us this simply isn't the case.

So you're Irish slipper? Please forgive my utter ignorance, as are there not Irish Earls, sitting in the House of Lords in Westminster? Were they appointed by the British then, rather than being UC Irish people?
What about Irish landowners? Are they the same class as the people that labour on their farms?
There must be some elements of an hierarchy surely?

There is NO such thing as an UC Irish person!

The Irish House of Lords ended in 1800.
Why would Irish people sit in the House of Lords in Westminister?

I have no idea what you are talking about and without meaning to cause offence, I suspect you don’t either . You may be referring to Northern Ireland which is ruled by the UK?

Irish landowners are called farmers!

Are you fucking kidding me @bsc???

The Irish RM was a tv series written by a novelist!

Well, as Edith Somerville died in 1949 (having spent a long time writing on behalf of Violet Martin, who used the pen name of Ross, andwho died in 1915 because she believed she was still channeling her dead writing partner's spirit), I can assure you she didn't write the TV series.

bsc, there are remnants of the Anglo-Irish still hanging about, but many were burnt out during the war of independence and left the country. The 'original' echt Irish aristocracy were either exterminated or went into exile during the more brutal phases of the Tudor colonisation of Ireland, and their lands confiscated by the crown and reallocated to settlers.

The Peerage of Ireland, which is probably what you are thinking of, are titles created by the British crown, including dukes, earls etc of places now in the republic of Ireland. Fortunately, we don't go in for that sort of thing, and no Irish citizen can hold a title without the permission of the government.

But I don't agree that Ireland is classless. It manifests itself differently, because of the much more fractured colonial history.

Not entirely classless but a far cry from the UK, as I said.

Like the world over, there are rich and poor and people who think they are better than others.

There are many ordinary people, who look down on the outdoor pyjama wearers, smoking while pregnant sort of people but that stems from the disapproval of the lack of respect for others/society rather than a sense of superiority. People would prefer conformity by all rather than segregating those people but that isn’t always the case and is more often than not an urban social issue. If somebody wore their pjs in public in a village they would simply be thought of as eccentric 😀

Well it could be argued that all workers are working class, whatever their work.

I think the issue is that you are from different backgrounds (same here btw) and you are trying to classify yourselves as a unit rather than as individuals. The lifestyle you have both chosen doesn't eradicate the ingrained messages of his upbringing. So he probably does feel working class inside.

So the Earl of Listowel is not Irish? Though Listowel is in County Kerry? It's a title made up by the British, and he is what, British?

Bsc you ate referring to the previously mentioned Anglo Irish. Please get off google 😀😀😀

George Osborne will inherit the baronetcy of Ballintaylor and Ballylemon from his father. Doesn't make him Irish. These titles are a vestige of Ireland's colonial past.

I'm not using Google, thanks. Perhaps if I was googling, I would've known that the British created peers named after Irish places... ?

Why don’t you google it then?

Why don’t you google it then?

So what is it you want to know @bsc?

There are still a few remnants of auld decency in Ireland. Lots of big, crumbling houses like Glin Castle it Bantry House.

Do the working class really only work in retail and hospitality? What are nurses, teachers, administrators, bookkeepers, small shop owners, publicans, civil service staff. Aren’t they all working class? Do their children have a higher mortality rate than children of GPS, accountants, analysts?

I think you're being being deliberately obtuse, because I quite clearly didn't say that all working class people worked in retail and hospitality, but that most retail and hospitality workers are working class. We are, of course, allowed to do other jobs.

I would argue that most of the professions listed are not working class professions, and that while the person doing the job may be working class, their children are not. It is, of course, poverty which results in a lower life expectancy, and it is prominently the working class who are in poverty, especially now after so many years of austerity (and just to be extra, extra clear, this does not mean that all working class are living in poverty, but that most people in poverty are working class.) The reality is that the working class, on average, has less income than middle or upper classes, and that affects their health.

Flint castle is very near where my family are, it can be rented out now I believe? Then again Buckingham Palace is open to the public so I suppose they are on par

*Glin not Flint !!!