Are working mothers advancing at the expense of other women’s domestic labour?

[SosigDog]

Around the world, women who can afford it are freed to pursue their career by other women who care for their children, cook their food, and clean their home.

I was intrigued by this article. It seems to me that every mother who works must necessarily be freed to work by delegating at least some of her domestic chores to a paid employee. And that employee must be lower paid otherwise the mother couldn’t afford to work. Are working mothers advancing at the expense of other women’s labour?

www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/04/megan-stack-domestic-workers-role-family-life/586282/

Parents benefiting from labour purchased from other workers SHOCKER.

My impression from the article is that she's actually concerned that the specific conditions under which she hired her 'domestic labour' were exploitative, which is a fair enough concern. I wouldn't have done it myself in her circumstances, which are elaborated a bit in this blurb of her book. But I'm not particularly moved to give her money for writing about her futile, hand-wringing guilt, either (note that she's still employing people . . .). I'd be much more interested in the first-person memoirs of the people she hired.

I'm sorry but this is the most offensive pile of shit I've ever read. I have to go back to work to support my child. I've not been 'freed' to pursue something wonderful I can well assure you. I simply have to make it work both returning to my old job and starting a business. Staying at home with my child would be a luxury.

That female dominated fields tend to be lower paid is a separate (but important) issue

Why is it a separate issue.

Is the OP going to return at some point, if only to explain this isn't for an article/thesis?

Isn't it a much bigger issue that men advance at the expense of women's domestic labour?

Isn't it a much bigger issue that men advance at the expense of women's domestic labour?

Yes but it’s not a good a story and lacks the flavour of knocking down those career girls getting above themselves.

Why is it a separate issue.

Because all women-dominated roles, whether ‘taking over’ from the (supposed) domestic duties of other women or in other roles are less well-rewarded and economically valued than similarly skilled roles in male-dominated fields.

It isn’t unique to domestic/childcare work. So the issue of whether women (sorry, mothers) working, leading to those tasks being carried out by others in paid work in domestic and caring fields, is exploitation or positive is separate (but linked) to the fact that women’s roles are more systemically lower paid.

There is an endemic problem where work with a caring or emotional element is financially undervalued compared to work with a technical or manual element.

Look at the class action court cases where female council workers (carers, lunchtime supervisors etc) were paid far less than mostly male council workers (collecting bins, maintaining parks or sweeping roads).

I think it will be interesting to see what impact automation has on this gap. It is easy to forsee a robot that can find a wheelie bin and move it to the back of a refuse truck. It is harder to forsee a robot that can provide proper care to a baby or toddler.

There is an endemic problem where work with a caring or emotional element is financially undervalued compared to work with a technical or manual element

I’m not sure that’s true. I mean it is badly paid but I don’t think it’s because there is a caring element, I think it’s because women tend to do those jobs. Where women do manual jobs (cleaning, machine sewing, factory line work) they are just as underpaid.

The latest figures I can find show 2% of early years practitioners are male.

I’m surprised it’s as high as 2% tbh.

True. I had forgotten the factory work aspect. Does anyone know if male factory workers tend to get paid more than female factory workers?

But the class actions were massive and many are still not settled.

Yes. But then those lower paid women can normaly claim some top-ups in the form of tax credits in the uk to even things up a little. Not everybody has the headspace for a high powered job - some people would prefer something less cerebrally challenging if it allowa them to work flexibly or be self employed.

And also - what ever happened to men taking on a fair share of domestic labour? Why should any woman have to feel guilty about not doing housework all day when her husbamd doesn't?

That Megan Stack woman is a typical virtue signalling progressive Liberal.

The same argument applies to most service or caring industries though - people outsourcing their coffee making to a minimum wage worker rather than making it themselves; a self-employed trader who gets a bookkeeper in for a few hours a week. Singling out what used to be women’s unpaid labour as uniquely exploitative is deeply sexist.

Absolutely. I note that no one seems to think I should spend some of my working time scrubbing the work loos or vacuuming the floor - we seem to accept the division of labour where the cleaners do that and that's ok even though I get paid more than them - but hiring someone to do the same job in my own home is exploitative?

DH and I have both, jointly engaged the services of a childminder. I do think her work is undervalued and underpaid - the funded hours are a particular problem - but I don't see why I and not DH can be seen as exploiting her for my own progression if this is seen through any lens other than a deeply sexist one.

her domestic chores
Whose domestic chores now?

We outsource a lot of OUR domestic chores by the way - we have a cleaner and an ironing service, we don't wash our clothes by hand so our washing is supported by the people in the washing machine factory (not overwhelmingly women I don't think), we don't tend to buy ready meals to reduce our plastic use but we buy fish and chips and pizza both in cardboard so our cooking is outsourced to the people that run the takeaways (mix of men and women), the DCs go to after school club (DS' favourite helper is a man).

We had 4 male staff at my DCs' nursery out of maybe 50 (a couple were part timers that were training in a related profession). So a pretty tiny minority but non zero. The nursery attached to school has 2 male staff out of maybe 20-30 who come and go.

One thing that I DO think is true is that couples who have DCs and whose parents are still of working age may well be benefitting from their DMs' reduced working hours i.e. Granny's pension pot is going on childcare.

Ooh yes I do also outsource both my coffee roasting (either someone who does it for the supermarket - likely in a UK factory - or someone who does it for a local coffee roaster - male and female) and sometimes my actual coffee brewing (baristas male and female. Though frankly some of the teenage boys seem to treat it as an opportunity to be as slow as possible).

Fucksake. Karl Marx must be turning in his grave.

Today I outsourced my household waste disposal to the bin men. And they were men. Why does this not count?

I don’t pay any childcare. I don’t employ a cleaner. I do get Sainsbury’s to deliver me food (99% of the time the driver is a man, but who knows else was involved in that transaction) but I cook it myself. I do force the DSes to do some of the housework because it’s their mess too.

But if I were employing a housekeeper and childcare staff, I’d be helping some other (probably) women to pay their own bills and such like. That’s how the economy works. Us working mother’s dont exist on the labour of our domestic slaves.

My friend has a male cleaner, ex army. He earns more per hour than her, but does an amazing job. My friend is time poor so is happy to pay him the going rate. Cleaners around her earn £10-£12 per hour which for a poor northern area is bloody good money.

Oh great, yes, let's blame women for capitalism too. Why not?

I can't help laughing about the fact that the reason she gives for needing domestic help in India/ China was so she had time to write a book about how bad domestic help is. Also, she now has school age kids and lives in Singapore so she could 100% do without if she really wanted to...... what is that saying about it's easier to fight for your principles than live up to them???

Ha! Not true in this house, SAHD while I work, nothing outsourced at all, not even childcare. So I guess I'm furthering my career at my husband's expense?