Are working mothers advancing at the expense of other women’s domestic labour?

[SosigDog]

Around the world, women who can afford it are freed to pursue their career by other women who care for their children, cook their food, and clean their home.

I was intrigued by this article. It seems to me that every mother who works must necessarily be freed to work by delegating at least some of her domestic chores to a paid employee. And that employee must be lower paid otherwise the mother couldn’t afford to work. Are working mothers advancing at the expense of other women’s labour?

www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/04/megan-stack-domestic-workers-role-family-life/586282/

I also work school hours and the school clubs my children take part in are all run by the same man. So as stated above not all women.

My cleaner and DS’s keyworker at nursery are both men. The cleaner rakes in more than me, and employs 2 other cleaners. I’m not advancing my career at the expense of someone else’s, that IS his career.

I was intrigued by this article. It seems to me that every mother who works must necessarily be freed to work by delegating at least some of her domestic chores to a paid employee.

If it seems so to you then you’re not a very deep thinker.

Our cleaners are Male and female. Childcare could be done by men. It's decently paid for many people (mainly women) because they care for several children.

I agree that this is still more true than not.

The proportion of male early years practitioners is very, very small.

Salaries are very low with few opportunities for progression. I have seen nursery manager jobs in central London advertised for less than £20k! Until recent initiatives on auto-enrolment, pension provision was very patchy.

Just because an individual woman managed to juggle work and childcare with their male partner, it does not mean that is true on a national scale.

Just because an individual woman managed to juggle work and childcare with their male partner, it does not mean that is true on a national scale.

So what’s your conclusion? Why is it not ok for women to divide up domestic labour but it is ok for men? I don’t understand what the point it? That women are shirking? That childcare providers are uniquely exploited in a way that other lower earners are not?

I think a much bigger issue is that men are allowed to enrich themselves on the backs of women’s unpaid labour. When it comes to child support and employment practices we don’t financially recognise women’s contribution.

In respect of delegating “domestic” chores, I don’t see why that’s an issue more than delegating any other economic activity. Provided the person is paid fairly I don’t see the issue.

What about PAs and secretaries (mostly female)? Should their better-paid bosses feel shit about not doing their own admin? Or only the female bosses not the male ones?

Exactly! I'm in a band 2 position with the NHS and so mostly do admin and other tasks which enable my higher banded colleagues to do their own jobs and get paid a lot more. Should they feel bad about "exploiting" me or should we just accept not everyone can have a or want a higher paid job?

When I was growing up my parents paid MEN to do gardening work, plumbing, electrical wiring. I guess my father was advancing at the expense of other men's domestic labour as well.

My husband does 1 day a week of the childcare and otherwise baby is in nursery. There are men who work in the nursery.

So I'm happily advancing at the expense of the labour of men too.

Isn't the point that the rich advance at the expense of the poor? And because of existing power imbalances lower paid workers are more likely to be minority ethnic and / or women.

Not just women vs women.

Exactly! I'm in a band 2 position with the NHS and so mostly do admin and other tasks which enable my higher banded colleagues to do their own jobs and get paid a lot more.

This is the closest I come to exploiting other women’s labour I suppose. My assistant does my typing, organises my calendar, does the filing and sometimes buys me lunch. Is this ok? Or should I give my job to a man to avoid this completely arbitrary prohibition on women not doing everything themselves.

It’s so so sexist. It’s not a clever point.

Overall, the majority of women work in low paid careers and men in higher paid careers.

So, taking a majority view, yes I can see that women will delegate their house jobs to other women for low pay.

Why is this? I certainly know that women in high flying careers take on the mental load.

This mental load includes thinking about the household and children. They’re in charge of it, so they’re the ones delegating it - usually to women.

That’s not to say there are exceptions. But they are exceptions. It’s very unusual to have male cleaners, male nannies, male childminders.

The question is why is that?

Why can’t we have well paid careers and a better work life balance, such that we don’t need to outsource quite so much....?

It’s because the working environment is generally set up based on the experiences and needs of men. Men, working fathers, just don’t think they need to worry about flexible working, taking on more at home and, god forbid, spending more time raising children.

It is changing. Slowly. But flexible working is not universal as people cannot get out of the mindset that a job takes up a full week, maybe more (although they’ve probably not actually sat down and worked out all of the tasks and time associated for a job)

So let’s not pretend we don’t live in a misogynistic world. We do! Look at Theresa May with her boy/girl jobs, Donald Trump.....

I’m agreeing the the poster I quoted btw, if that isn’t clear!

Also if high paid jobs were shared out more, more people could be employed at a decent wage.

Instead we have egos who think they deserve that £million salary when the reality is they’re nothing special.

I agree with loads of that Iggly. It’s why I have to sit on my hands to avoid typing BULLSHIT!! every time I read that it’s impossible for people’s DHs to do anything because they have super important jobs. I can’t atand the mindset that one of you (99.9% a woman) must be totally in charge domestically to facilitate men’s careers absolutely.

Also it really is just bollocks by the men. I have men in my team who go to the gym for two hours in the afternoon then “have to stay late” and miss bedtime. They’re just choosing to opt out at home.

This is deeply sexist. Money and power are predominately held by men, built on centuries of the exploitation and silencing of women. Some women have fought against the odds to redress the balance and they are blamed for the exploitation of women??? Look at the bigger picture and stop the continued belittlement of women.

Yes Forgiveness - women being at the bottom end of the pay scale at a societal level is categorically not the fault of women, and it is shameful to make women who advance feel guilty about it.

Domestic duties and childcare are not "women's jobs"! That's the deeply sexist bollocks at the heart of this. Men do not do their share, women who want to work will need to outsource tasks to other people, usually women as the work is often low paid and not valued highly. The issue in this scenario is not the women.

every time I read that it’s impossible for people’s DHs to do anything because they have super important jobs

Exactly!!!

If a woman was doing that job she’d either make it work with her family or make a sacrifice sadly - which would be not do the job at all. Hence fewer women in positions of power.

There are exceptions but that is the general rule.

Men fail to do their share because they don’t see it as their share.

Those born in the 80s/90s will probably be a greater proportion with working mothers but even then, the working mothers are doing all the fucking juggling.

As a working mother, I hate the juggle and hate the fact that dh just wont take it up with me telling him what to do.

I have a high paid job as a qualified professional. On a par if not higher “employment status” than dh.

Yet who’s the mug who’s taken on most of the house/childcare stuff despite pushing for ages

Curiously enough, a good number of the people who work at my son’s nursery are working mothers. And also working father’s...

The premise of the article is seriously flawed by putting ‘traditional women’s work’ into a special category that workers are apparently exploited by being employed or self-employed to do.

The same argument applies to most service or caring industries though - people outsourcing their coffee making to a minimum wage worker rather than making it themselves; a self-employed trader who gets a bookkeeper in for a few hours a week. Singling out what used to be women’s unpaid labour as uniquely exploitative is deeply sexist.

There is a better argument that women working more has created more economic opportunities in female-dominated areas, giving more women the opportunity for partial or total financial independence. That female dominated fields tend to be lower paid is a separate (but important) issue.

I pay for a cleaner. She earns double what I do in an hour and I'm an RN. She's a working mother too. She will benefit from mine and my colleaurs labour. It's how society works.

What about working fathers? Or are we still viewing domestic work as womens work.
Absolute sexist bullshit designed to pile more guilt at womens feet.

I’m incredulous at this level of sexist bullshit

Yes.