Why is the one popular/lively/extrovert girl in every group dislikes me, all my life?

[Borelis]

Hi,
I am a mid-20s female and felt throughout my life, e.g. at school and at every work place, say there's 30 people (15 guys and 15 girls), the 15 guys will generally be really friendly or at least nice enough to me. In the 15 girls, at least 12 or 13 of them would be really friendly or at least neutral with me. However, every time there's usually a short but loud, lively, extrovert girl (the type who leads group convos, laughs at every joke loudly and generally thinks she's the leader, very opinionated etc) will almost instantly take a dislike to me (without any argument etc occurring as I'll be fairly civil and normal with her) but I could tell as she'd then bitch to the other girls behind my back about me to the point where they start avoiding me too and she'd openly disagree with anything I have to say etc. and then the news will spread to the guys and some of them will also take a step back..

I don't know why this happens at EVERY school and work place I've been to. 90% of people will be fine/very friendly with me yet that one short, loud, female just will not like me for no reason that I can think of.

P.S I am also short but considered "pretty" I guess and above average intelligence (based on grades, work performance etc.) but I don't show off about this at all. I'm not a shy introvert but I'm definitely not a loud extrovert either (I wouldn't speak a lot in group settings/meetings) - I am exactly in the middle (which surely should be the easiest type for most people to get along with?). Most men seem to like talking to me, even as friends, more than with other girls. I am the type to always be very smiley, friendly, agreeable and helpful but I know I can come across slightly "cold" with females, just purely out of being a bit nervous of them and their possible rejection but I'm still very helpful and kind with them. It's not even that these loud extrovert girls like only loud people as they'll happily get along with both loud people and those that are much much quieter than me.

I just hate that this one person always ends with me losing everyone's popularity at every place I go to. I can't pinpoint exactly what causes this

I thought I had an unreasonable problem with short, assertive and popular women. I didn't know why, they just didn't seem to like me and they made me cringe inwardly whenever I heard them marching down the corridor.

I realised eventually, that it was because my mother was short, assertive and everybody loved her - and she used that to facilitate abusing three of her children physically and mentally without ever being caught out. Of course poor, little her, so cute and dainty, couldn't possibly be doing all those horrid things and it's soooo heartbreaking to try and imagine why the evil child could say such a terrible, cruel lie...

So I was instinctively wary of a particular tone of voice, the sweet smile that the eyes didn't join in with, the Everybody Loves that person persona. And they could tell I saw it.

Over time, I realised it wasn't just short women - I've seen it with men of all heights and tall women. The common thing isn't a particular physical appearance, it's the way they get what they want, whatever it is, by being sweet and lovely in public and fucking vicious behind closed doors.

I can't stand it. I hate having to speak to somebody knowing that that they will completely rewrite history, they'll be incredibly nice to you in public, but will rip you to pieces where there are no witnesses and, in the nicest possible way, do their best to fuck you over whilst sounding like the innocent angel in all this.

Could it be possible that you're recognising the behaviours and it's just coincidence that they're all of similar appearance so far?

OP you just described me except you missed out STUNNING.
I think it’s in your head although I’m not feeling to warm towards you I’ll be honest.

I agree with PP who say "you can't expect everyone to like you".

That’s true. Sometimes you just have so little in common with someone else, or you’ve got such incompatible personalities, that the absolute best you can hope for is becoming polite acquaintances.

But if it is always the same sort of person you’re having problems with, I wonder if, after the first one or two cases, you’ve started subconsciously expecting problems with this type of woman, and therefore, from the start, been treating them worse than you treat others without consciously intending to. Which in turn could cause them to react negatively towards you and start this whole vicious cycle off again.

It sounds to me as though you've had a situation once or twice where someone doesn't like you, and this has left you feeling anxious and defensive about it happening again. So therefore when you come across someone who reminds you of the women who didn't like you, you instantly and subconsciously don't like them and are offhand with them, so they are the same with you, and therefore the cycle starts.

I am wondering too if you have quite low self esteem, OP? It does sound from your posts as though that might be the case. I had very low self esteem in my twenties and teens and was always very tuned in and paranoid for signs of people not liking me. As my self esteem has improved (combination of therapy and getting older and therefore giving less of a fuck ), I don't tend to notice these days if someone doesn't like me and I'm just the same to everyone.

I’m a short, loud, extroverted woman (but also pretty and intelligent because you can have all those traits ). Something about your post has rubbed me up the wrong way, so you might actually be onto something there.

I don’t know why you think you need to be liked by everyone. Have your friends and be professional/ a decent human being with everyone else.

Perhaps you are trying to be this smiley friendly and agreeable person and are coming across as disingenuous?

Cool story bro

Interesting... I'm short and loud and I don't much like the sound of you either.
I must inform the others in the club to watch out for you.

Maybe you analyse yourself and others too much.
In my experience and nothing to do with height, but louder people are often hiding more insecurities than quieter people, especially overly loud and lively people. No one under the age of 35 is confident around others, this manifests in either being extrovert and loud, sheep like to fit in or withdrawn. As you get older you give less of shit what others think and with that comes the confidence to just relax.

OP when I read your first post I thought "Aspergers". Then all the posts in reply (which I agreed with tbh) and your second post, then I thought "Definitely a bit Aspergers"

Of course, I could be wide of the mark. Naturally not every person, men or women, presents alike. But there does seem to be an element of otherness about your terminology in your posts, where you are looking at other women as something to assess, to work out how they tick, even the fact that you've actually asked them what's going wrong; it's not wrong per se to do this, but it's just not the done thing and that makes it odd...

The thing is, you do sound a bit socially unaware, your terminology is a bit "off", and with your query you've instantly got a lot of people's backs up (even though you clearly didn't intend to). It just seems to me there are a lot of pointers there.

I want to engage with this, but I can’ take your insistence that height is a relevant factor seriously at all.

If you come across as cold to women, that's what the problem is... They think you don't like them.

Thank you @Slowknitter for your kind, understanding message.

Thanks also to the other posters too:

1. When I say I sometimes behave coldly to women, maybe cold was the strong word to use.. I mean more like awkward, nervous, weak, and I'd not say things like "Ooooh oh my gawd" etc that most other girls do so I seem very boy-ish, cold and reserved in comparison but I'd always be smiley.

2. It could be that I'm over-thinking it but it seems to quite clearly happen at every work, school and uni situation and yes I know I can't expect everyone to like me but I guess I don't know why someone would actively dislike me that much for no reason and it's the fact they are gossipy enough to spread weird rumours, etc about me to make those who were reasonably nice to me, not want to be friendly with me anymore.

3. I'm not saying every short, loud girl in the world is like what I'm describing - I can only write from my repeated observations e.g. If I only saw people of ethnicity X or age X or gender X spit in the street throughout my life (and no other age group, ethnicity or gender did), I'd surely describe it similarly - I couldn't say it's like that worldwide and it could be a giant coincidence but I can only report on my observations.

4. Would "try-hards" put such loud girls off me even more? like those who try and be extra friendly, etc? I've tried to be that way like noticing any positive changes in her appearance, wishing her a nice weekend, holding the door for her, generally being smiley etc. but doesn't seem to make much difference.

I recently came across a new thread by someone this week: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3534341-To-be-totally-sick-of-bitchy-colleagues-behaviour?watched=1&msgid=85620692#85620692

and my situation explained here is VERY similar (being deliberately left out etc.)

"I'd not say things like "Ooooh oh my gawd" etc that most other girls do"

What the hell, are you serious?

Well I'm tall and quiet and I'm not warming to you AT ALL. If you talk like this in real life, I'm surprised more people don't like you.

I'm short and loud and going on your posts, I don't think I'd warm to you. You sound like a woman who thinks men's judgement is more important, and like you think women are in competition- the insinuation that women don't like you because you're pretty and clever. In short, I think you've absorbed some pretty misogynistic beliefs.

I think Bump and The Noode are onto something here.

I think there are certain types of personality that really clash. My DD sounds a bit like you OP. She’s a bit socially awkward and sometimes comes across as a bit ditsy (probable ADD). Shes also got a bit of a thing about people being rough or coarse and, I imagine, comes across as being a bit prim. She’s quite black and white.

She’s always got on better with the boys but craves girl friendships. She clings on to her girl friendships even when I think she should probably move on. Lots of girls just really don’t like her and take against her very quickly. Lots of boys are very attracted, probably because she is averagely pretty and friendly and very straightforward. I think this makes some girls dislike her more.

Currently she’s very much moaning about the loud girl in her office who doesn’t like her.

I’m finding it difficult to believe that without any prompting or behaviour from you, in numerous difference settings and workplaces throughout your life, the exact type of woman has behaved in the exact same type of way with the exact same consequences for your other friendships. I’m thinking that this is a combination of self-fulfilling prophecy and over-thinking things (such as it being down to you not saying “oh my gawd” like other women do?!)

OP sounds far nicer than some of the catty comments she's had back!

I've always struggled with "Queen Bee" popular, trendy types. I'm happy in myself and don't tend to conform with crowds as I'm comfortable doing my own thing either with company or solo. Fortunately I realised this quite early into the teenage years so isn't something I've chased into adulthood. I don't know whether this personality type gets thrown by a lack of conformity with the usual behaviour they recieve and expect and there is a natural clash.

I've tended to have quite mixed groups of friends and also find males quite straightforward company. I fitted better with the more "alternative" type groups which admittedly have their own ways of conforming, but seemed happier to accept my deviations away from their normal ranges.

I'd not say things like "Ooooh oh my gawd" etc that most other girls do

Wow I must not know any normal girls

You sound like you care a lot about what other people think and come across as quite self-conscious (understandably if you've had bad experiences). I think you need to let go - not everyone is going to like you, not everyone is going to want to be your friend and that's ok. It sounds to me like you clash with the personality type you describe and neither of you are doing anything wrong necessarily, but you're not going to end up the best of friends! My only advice is to relax, don't dwell, don't over-analyse every social situation trying to figure out what everyone else is thinking and focus on forming friendships with people you do get on with. And if that's no one at work so be it - be polite and professional and cultivate your social life elsewhere.

There's a wonderful saying.

If someone's behaving like an asshole, then they're an asshole.

If everyone's behaving like an asshole, then you're an asshole.

Thank you to all your replies, especially @SmarmyMrMime :). I do find it odd that people seem to be very offended at some of my explanations here... e.g. that I don't say "omg etc." - obviously I don't go around saying this observation to people but the whole point of posting here is we can reveal our inner thoughts and explore certain aspects.

@DerelictWreck I did not say everyone was behaving like this - I said it's that one particular personality type in every social group and even if it was everyone, I don't think your statement is fair or right and probably does contribute to damaging people's mental health. It's like if every man a woman has been with cheats on her, does it mean they're all in the right and there must be something wrong with her..? No, because if that's the case they could have left rather than cheated. Not everything is as black and white as you put it - some people are just unlucky and quite often it's the "assholes" that seem to gain a lot of quick popularity more than the average person.

@ItMustBeBedtimeSurely Definitely not - if I so highly valued men's judgement only, why on earth would I make a thread wanting an answers/insight into why a certain type of female doesn't like me. Also, surely I wouldn't ask on a forum full of women either..?!

I'm definitely not saying I'm THE prettiest or THE cleverest - for the purposes of this, I've put myself as being average in both measures and have noticed that very beautiful women (prettier than me) and very clever women (cleverer than me) have NEVER behaved horribly towards me..

Yeah @TinklyLittleLaugh from your description, I guess I do sound a bit like your DD though I really don't mind coarse, rough people/women at all - it's just when they exclude me, etc. that is the problem.

@KatnissKringle Yea I guess you're right but I feel like it can't be that hard to change myself if it's a personality trait that 90% of females seem to have.. I just haven't got a clear indication on what it is...

Also going back to @TheNoodlesIncident's post about aspergers and a more recent post suggesting ADD (by @TinklyLittleLaugh ) :

I googled both and had a read.
Definitely don't think I fit into the ADD description as I'm very academic, detail orientated, reasonably good at listening etc.

For Aspergers - this is a bit of a tricky one as some of the symptoms are just characteristics of being a bit introvert I'd imagine so I do relate to some of the symptoms but then other symptoms such as not being able to read emotions, insensitive etc. are complete polar opposites to what I'm like - if anything I read too much into people's facial expressions and probably am a bit too sensitive.

I could be wrong (or just very very mild or a high functioning version) but don't relate to either syndrome hugely and feel almost anyone with certain behaviour traits can be a mild version of these two disorders. & everyone always says I'm really friendly, smiley, they can't imagine me getting angry and I seem to make friendships with random strangers very easily.

Though when I did look at the symptoms of BPD (borderline personality disorder) a while back, which no one has mentioned, I did relate to a lot of the symptoms for that one (again high functioning but not mild).. not sure if that's got anything to do with my issues.