Shamima Begum has her citizenship revoked

[KenAdams]

How can this happen? I thought they aren't allowed to leave a person stateless? Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just wondering how they managed it.

@woodhill how is anyone on here supposed to know that? Do you know that the lawyer is being paid, as opposed to working pro bono (for free)?

I look at this from a different point of view.

She is either a) not dangerous in which case it doesn't matter where she goes or b) she is dangerous in which case Britain has far more resources to police her than Bangladesh.

I have no knowledge of Bangladeshi politics, how would she be received there? Not by the government but by ordinary people? Is there any chance she would become a martyr?

The baby is a British citizen who should be brought to Britain.

HotPot

“For the rule of law to mean anything, it has to apply to all of us. Including those who would do us the most harm.”

^This in a nutshell.

Frankly I think this shows that Sajid Javid is not fit for his office. The HO is a position that comes with a great deal of power over citizens rights. Those rights are not to be administered or rescinded willy nilly in a means for ANYONE to further their own political ambitions or grandstand to the press. It is an abuse of power when done for these motives.

He casts aside the rule of law and our moral high ground on a whimsy.

How does the citizenship revoking actually help?

Indeed. He has now told everyone with British Citizenship in this country who retains the mere ability to be a dual citizen - including every citizen of Bangladeshi descent - That they have second class citizenship. That any time a HS feels the need to consolidate his reach for PM it may potentially be stripped from them, without them being heard, without due process, without ascertaining whether they're actually a threat.

Great, way to go! Whoop Whoop! Few messages could be more beguiling to someone with rights to dual citizenship and on the edge of becoming radicalised than that of 'you're not even a real citizen to these people'

And the focus of this stupid decision is what...an actual Isis Fighter? A radical Iman gone rogue......no it's a lactating mother in a refugee camp who has lost 2 children, and was radicalised in this country at just 15. But wait ?!. Don't we have others among us we know to have had an active share in fighting, and yet more besides who are in prison? Have they not been subject to due process? But this girl... We must be seen to be hard...The press you see.

We are less safe now. Again, I expect politicians to do and be better, to do what is best in the long term. Not play to the gallery. Not go on a 'look right wing media, look how big my cock is!...I'll show this woman this girl whose in control here' power posing ego bender.

I read that the lawyer is working pro bono.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/decoding-shamima-begum-why-we-shouldnt-be-surprised-by-her-lack-of-remorse-mbgxdbtzf

This is by the Times journalist who found her and interviewed her. Really interesting - echoes many of the points made on this thread, and clarifies some of the questions
(Paywall, though can read for free if you register)

Javid has gone down in my estimation over this and he was never high up to start with.

You can't punish people because of something they might do. If she has committed a crime then by all means arrest her if she returns to the UK and charge her with something.

It does look like stripping her of her citizenship has made her stateless which he can't do. I hope his decision is overruled quickly.

That times article is the only sensible thing I’ve seen in the media about the case. Why wasn’t it reported at first the she is actually scared, doubtful and an excellent candidate for rehabilitation? I wonder.

@sashh it is equally possible that she would be more dangerous in the UK than in Bangladesh. She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial.

She is in a closed refugee camp with no paperwork for either her or her son. Her son is theoretically entitled to British citizenship by descent, but she would need paperwork to demonstrate that he is hers. Some people here have been doubting that he is, though there is good reason to think that being continually pregnant is fairly normal in a society without contraception and a desire to grow a following. Nevertheless, getting court-certified DNA tests and birth certification could be tricky and would certainly require outside help. Similarly, she is an adult. Unless she set up power of attorney before she left, I am not sure her parents can instruct a solicitor on her behalf. She will need to do that and she will need to actively appeal the Home Office decision by writing a letter herself.

Having watched her, I am not even sure if she is that bothered. It is one thing to say you are disappointed, it is another thing to mean it. She had a life with her husband and fellow mothers in Islamic State, which she has referred back to a number of times and says her parents had come to terms with her departure. It is that life that she seems to want most. I don't think her sniffing is crying or fake crying either. Her eyes aren't crying - she just has a bit of a snuffly nose, which could be caused by a mild winter cold or dust.

I've just seen a photo of her sister renu holding a photo of her. her sister's gaze and face look genuine... IE the anguish and sincerity of loosing her sister.

I'm just sensing total fakeness from this girl. Like the same feeling when that Man who killed Tia was on TV and other interviews like that...

I'd be bloody embarrassed if I were her!

She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial.

Bangladesh would have difficulty establishing that she has committed offences under Bangladeshi law, particularly given that she isn't a citizen of that country.

Best she stays where she is then.... they aren't kicking her out and she certainly looks well fed in clothing better than our own homeless people are in....

I'm just sensing total fakeness from this girl.

Really? I don't get that at all.

Tbh, if the intention was to fake stuff in order to manipulate us and gain our sympathy, I think she has done a very bad job of it. It would have been very easy for her to say all of the stuff that we might have wanted to hear, but she didn't say any of it. On the contrary, she didn't appear to be remotely contrite or repentant.

If she was trying to fake it, I think we'd have seen a very different interview, full of regret and remorse. Instead, we saw a very messed up young woman who doesn't really get that she has done anything wrong and doesn't appear to have any idea how abhorrent her views will seem to the general UK population.

I thought she looked well fed too, good skin etc.

Really, Brizzlemint? This is a young woman a few days post partum who is looking at a future in which her own and her baby's chances of survival are slim at best, and she must be pretending?

Potentially. She's been totally devoid of any emotion in the majority of the interviews apart from barely concealing a smile when asked about the Manchester bombings. She wasn't emotional when talking about her parents or her children who died. She's either very cold because she doesn't care about any of that and has decided it's better to try and show some emotion to try and tug at heart strings or she's so badly traumatised that she can't show emotion.

None of us have any way of knowing which is which.

The first person to experience Brexit 👍🏼

That's nearly funny Flowersaremyfave

I think there are many others deserving to lose citizenship, who haven't done.

Anyone who goes to join the enemy should have their citizenship revoked. Too many people go and come back and are treated like they popped to Spain for a 2 weeks holiday working on their tans 👎🏼

She is Bangladeshi by birth until the age of 21, regardless of whether she ever applied for a passport. If they deem her a threat, they can either let her languish in a refugee camp or they can arrest her and put her on trial

I'm not sure it's that simple. From BD news 24:

"Shah Ali Farhad, who is a barrister by training, (and assistant to the Bandgladesh PM) gave a detailed explanation of the issue citing different references of the British as well as Bangladesh and international laws in his Facebook post before saying that Shamima is not a Bangladesh citizen either...."

He also said she is not a citizen of Bangladesh and that “dual citizenship, or citizenship by descent, is not an automatic right.

“It needs to be granted by the government of Bangladesh based on an application from the person, or her parents in the case of minors, seeking Bangladeshi citizenship by descent [Article 2-4 of the Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Order 1972 and Rules 3, 4, 6, and 7 of the Bangladesh Citizenship (Temporary Provisions) Rules 1978].

“The provisions of the 1972 Order and the 1978 Rules have to be read together in harmony with the Citizenship Act, 1951 and the Citizenship Rules, 1952 to get a complete picture of the laws of citizenship in Bangladesh.

“One of the factors that the Government of Bangladesh looks at while granting dual citizenship is the applicant’s ties to Bangladesh,” Farhad said.

“Shamima Begum, never having travelled to Bangladesh and never having applied for a Bangladeshi citizenship, cannot be considered to “have a right” to Bangladeshi citizenship.”

m.bdnews24.com/en/detail/bangladesh/1595221

KingHenrysCodpiece, couldn't agree with you more. I really hope Javid does the decent thing and resigns... oh wait.......

@KingHenrysCodpiece the end of your quotation is interesting, but I think it is a generalisation that applies anywhere - the line between 'rights' and 'privileges'. UK law on the revocation of citizenship is based on the reasonable assumption that someone has an ability to acquire citizenship elsewhere. In that sense I think the UK is justified in using its own laws to revoke citizenship in this case. My suspicion is that the Bangladeshi authorities are trying to obfuscate the situation to a degree and that she does have the privilege of being able to acquire Bangladeshi nationality and that, in ordinary circumstances, she would be granted it.

If someone is born to Bangladeshi parents in a country where they cannot acquire citizenship, then they do not become stateless at 21. They remain Bangladeshi. The loss of the option of formalising Bangladeshi citizenship is associated with their laws on the dual citizenship of adults.

@PostmanPatIsIncompetent

That article certainly puts a different spin on things.

I think the comments are more telling though and I felt exactly the same when reading it.

"Well it is an irony then, that it is the edited video produced by Anthony Lloyd of this woman, that riled up the nation.

She has him to personally to thank for the national mood. But he got a good story."

"Mr Loyd should take some responsibility here, he sacrificed this silly girl for headlines, knowing what would happen. Had he written this article first the reaction may have been different."

Part of the problem is also if she is allowed back with her baby then she will want her Jihad Dutch husband to join her. No doubt she will claim it is her human rights to live with husband.

We need to look at legislating for stopping people who join and support terrorist organisations coming back to UK. The baby will be radicalised if left with that pair to raise it. It is named after a jihad warlord.

@KingHenrysCodpiece Thank you for that. I knew this law had to be more detailed and wasn't just "she has a Bangladeshi mum - she has citizenship". Incredibly foolish for Sajid Javid to not call the Bangladeshi Ambassador to the UK and double check.