Shamima Begum has her citizenship revoked

[KenAdams]

How can this happen? I thought they aren't allowed to leave a person stateless? Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just wondering how they managed it.

Britain is telling the world that it doesn't think countries of origin have any responsibility to take back its criminals

No it's applying international law,

Actually international law says that you can’t make a person stateless. Which is exactly what the U.K. is doing.
And yes basically that means that the country whose citizens have behaved badly IS responsible for them.
That’s why the U.K. send criminals back to their country of origin.
That’s also why there should be no issue with Syria sending her back to the UK.

i woudl far rather she come here. have baby adopted or put with suitable family. be tried and improsoned where we can keep a fucking close eye on her

Has she committed ny crimes against bangladesh? Can they prosecute are they interested in doing so? If not, then she's free in a country that has much less ressources to keep an eye on her.

she's british she was born here etc she is our responsibilty we should try her follow due process. .it's safer if we're watching her.

that's my view.

I also think this is all political which worries me a lot. Doing things like this should be about international law, due prcess etc. not playing to the media and using her to wahteevr ends the politicians are using her for. I worry about what they are up to.

I have no sympathy with her but I do beleive we should act in a measured consistent way and not sway with such important principles for political reaosns etc

We allowed a crazy mixed up and groomed child to leave the country with her sisters passport. Great security there UK

Ok so more stringent policing, maybe a police state bordering on China?

Do you remember the outcry when Prevent was brought in, there is a lot of revisionism going on to absolve personal responsibility and still blame the UK government.

*Remember her reaction to being asked about the Manchester attacks?

Begum needs to stay where she is*

Reacting, smiling, smirking, whatever isn't a crime though, and certainly not one commensurate with losing your citizenship. We can't start going down the path of thought policing.

Interestingly on last week's Question Time even that most right-wing of Tory boys, JRM manned to understand that the UK could not legally revoke her citizenship. So why can't Javid understand this? Oh, he does, he's just using this as a signpost for now, he knows it won't hold water through the appeals process, but it gives him some glory and gets him (and the Tory Party) some public support just at a time with they need it. It's all bloody posturing whilst fucking around with a young woman's life.

Meanwhile elsewhere on Mumsnet, forum users are telling a mother that she should keep her 19 year old daughter off uni for a year after a relationship break up. Both 19 year old women, both of whom have got themselves into controlling relationships, both of whom have been lied to, reeled in and taken advantage of, both of whom have been through trauma (though arguably Begum far more), and yet one is a victim who needs to be mothered, whilst the other can be left to languish with her baby. (Not forgetting that only one of these women was initially targetted whilst still a child).
Hhhmmm

Ok so more stringent policing, maybe a police state bordering on China?

Oh come on, you know that there is a big difference between a police state and the ability to carry out passport control checks properly. Seriously.

"We don't know that she has been through any trauma."

She witnessed things no one should ever see, has lived surrounded by bombing, and has seen two of her children die. She now can lives in a refugee camp. There is no way that she had been through all of this without trauma, whether she is able to admit this communication or not. She is still a human.

No smirking and showing no remorse isn't a crime but you can absolutely bet your bottom dollar if she was Nazi's camp guard. Smirking about concentration camps the usual suspects would be on her like a ton of bricks.

Care to elaborate what you mean there?

Yes choccy yes agree completely, and dog whistle politics are in operation. Its all so bloody strange how the other returning is members all 300 of them are here back in the UK and only 40 been charged and yet this girl is singled out, also the speed she was found had a child citizenship revoked and caused a media frenzy is about a week
Im no fan of IS but I do think something else is at play here, not sure what but all attention is away from everything else

And equally elsewhere on Mumsnet there are people who think it's a gross invasion of privacy to check their 14yo's phone. Yet somehow 'the UK' is supposed to come up with foolproof methods of preventing radicalisation that don't also infringe civil liberties and personal freedoms.

Oh come on, you know that there is a big difference between a police state and the ability to carry out passport control checks properly.

And you know the difference between grooming/self radicalisation/being brought up in conservative religious background to blaming the UK government.

It is far from " all our fault", people are ignoring the outcry with Prevent as it is

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/society-of-mosques-to-boycott-anti-terror-prevent-programme

Blaming the UK government is a simplistic answer to avoid difficult subjects

Marrying early Etc is common in her culture.

Marrying underage is common? Come on, she was raised in a British society, it'd have been illegal in Bangladesh and the UK, it's illegal to marry under 18 without parental consent.

Bengalis in the UK/the West don't all start marrying at 15.

Prevent isn't fit for purpose. I attended a session run by them once, in a majority Muslim area. Most of the session focussed on neo-nazism and how to spot it. The only example given of Muslim extremism was a case where they weren't actually extremists at all and it was all a misunderstanding caused by prejudice. They said they'd noticed Muslims in the room and warned us that if we said anything that could cause offence then management would deal with us. So we sat for two hours pretending that white supremacy is the only type of extremism.

Yes choccy yes agree completely, and dog whistle politics are in operation

Absolute horse shit, this tired meme of dog whistle politics is the modern day shut down because blatantly shouting racist has lost its edge.

And before you start I'm a minority.

Its all so bloody strange how the other returning is members all 300 of them are here back in the UK and only 40 been charged and yet this girl is singled out, also the speed she was found had a child citizenship revoked and caused a media frenzy is about a week

It's not, your trying to simplify the situation and re frame it, if your that hard of thinking to why this has gained international attention and why it's decided opinion, then it shows your lack of knowledge, I will give you a little pointer though, it's partly because of those that was brought back to face justice in the first place, sexism is far down the list so it's the wrong hill to defend.

Is it strange that both Canada, Germany and America are facing the same situation with returning female ISIS members wanting to return, with only the US women initially offering regret, all from the same camp? Or is it some sexist conspiracy, maybe we could tie it into a distraction from brexit?

The mental hoops to try and reframe the argument is becoming comical

Prevent isn't fit for purpose.

But it's the UK government fault for her radicalisation, so what do we do?

Unless we install a Chinese style firewall around the internet it just becomes very woolly as it's easier to blame the government without offering any alternative.

And I don't want the government in control of the internet in such a slippery slope way.

there was an expert who said look she has her hand on her hip … didn't he recognise she had just had a baby & was sitting in a very uncomfortable chair & there was another woman holding the baby next to her listening to everything she said no doubt. I think we need to stick strictly to the law - bring her back here & go through legal channels & check her mental health - I don't think she is blameless but I think that she has become a scape goat for everything the worst criminals & terrorist have done. & the baby is innocent

I think we need to stick strictly to the law - bring her back here & go through legal channels & check her mental health - I don't think she is blameless but I think that she has become a scape goat for everything the worst criminals & terrorist have done. & the baby is innocent

We are sticking to the law by revoking her British citizenship..

I’d like to have seen a proper deep interview with her. Where they went into her answers more.

I was talking to my DD tonight, she’s good friends with a Pakistani girl who currently attends Uni. Her friend is in a real dilemma. It is expected by her family that after Uni she will go back to Pakistan and marry the groom they have chosen for her. She doesn’t want this, she wants to live here and work. But if she does so she will need to go into hiding and lose her family forever. I wouldn’t want that choice.

SB says of her husband, “I could never have met someone like him in the UK’. You could take this two ways. One could be that she means she wanted to marry an IS supporter/fighter. The other could be just that she wanted to marry a white westerner, but would never have been allowed to. The context and her motivations potentially change completely if you dig deeper. All of the interviews have been quite superficial and painted her in the worst light.

I am not a supporter of letting her come back, as I have said in my posts. However the more interviews she does the more uncomfortable I become with the whole thing. Her defiance feels like overkill, like I am being “played” by the media. She does sound worse with every interview but now I am starting to question, is that deliberate? I still don’t feel she is “innocent” I still feel she knew what she was getting herself into. However, ISIS was made up of many, many people. Not just one woman from Tower Hamlets. I agree with what someone said upthread. The media need to let her be, enough is enough now.

there was an expert who said look she has her hand on her hip … didn't he recognise she had just had a baby & was sitting in a very uncomfortable chair

This absolutely. I've no sympathy for her but you'd think a body language expert would realise that certain poses can have completely different meanings when you're (for example) heavily pregnant or have just had a baby

Thank you very much, I am not hard of thinking and I will not call anyone's post bullshit because I don't agree because that's also shutting down, we are all entitled to our opinions without being shut down with name calling

I am not hard of thinking and I will not call anyone's post bullshit because I don't agree

If you can't form a decent response to back up the dog whistle politics that was evidently clear then I will stand by you just using buzzwords and lack critical thinking.

As you say we are entitled to differing opinions

I agree Asta

I am very worried about this move by Javid. I am not convinced it is anything but a crowd pleaser - maybe he is courting popularity with the Leadership in view. I would not be at all surprised if it were just a very cynical political move.

I would rather have her here in the UK,nsubject to our Justice system, have a proper investigation wrt whatever crimes she may have committed, and then take the punishment deemed appropriate.

We are sticking to the law by revoking her British citizenship....

No, we are not, the UK has signed up to certain international rules and laws, one of them is not to make someone stateless.

She is a UK problem not a Bangladeshi one, she was bought up and schooled here, she not a product of Bangladesh and needs to dealt with under UK law....not under Javids leadership ambitions.

Until that area of the world is safe for international travel, she can either stay there or make her own way out, no one should be put at risk trying to rescue her.

She'll be there years then! If isis don't solve the problem for us first