Now Girl Guides are expelling Guide Leaders and closing down their units for raising safeguardiing concerns

[ManicSunday]

A number of Guide Leaders raised safeguarding concerns about a Girl Guides policy which:

a) allowed adults males who self-identified as being women (without a Gender Recognition Certificate, medical diagnosis or any treatment) to become 'female' Guide Leaders
b) to require units to allow teenage boys who self-identified as girls to not only join the units and attend residential trips but to share tents and communal showers with the girls
c) that parents must not be informed that this was going on

It has now been confirmed that two of the Guide Leaders who raised safeguarding concerns have been expelled from the organisation and their units closed down and that at least five more are currently being subject to disciplinary investigation over this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-guide-leaders-expelled-for-questioning-trans-policy-550x7m55r?shareToken=65c8d021613171819f6979c0ab3d8902

This is bonkers, isn't it? When we have got to the stage where you can't even discuss safeguarding issues, something has gone badly wrong.

I’m not denying the leaders views aren’t in line with mine but GG don’t go terminatng memberships lightly.

I guess we just don’t know what was exactly that pushed them.

Whilst I know many of you won't need telling, can I please ask parents who might now remove their girls from guiding not to take out their frustration and possible anger out on the leaders. We're volunteers and as shown by the article many of us don't agree with the new policies, and support our fellow guiders for speaking out. But additionally we're saddened at the thought of losing some of our girls and in some cases our units entirely.

'GG don't go terminating memberships lightly'

Tha's a bit like saying churches are well-run organisations, Jimmy Savile raised a lot of money for charity and we all know children tell lies...

From this article at least 7 out of the 12 Girl Guide Leaders who raised concerns have either already been expelled or are currently being investigated - and the one named in article has been involved in the organisation (without doing anything to get herself expelled) for 15 years - so it would be a bit of a coincidence if it wasn't about this.

Like me check that I've understood this correctly, as a leader in Guiding...

If I follow current policy, lots of MNers will remove their girls from my unit in case we're all closeted predatory trans women or in case we might admit predatory boys-who-says-they're-girls.

If I object to current policy, then GG will boot me out and all girls will lose the unit.

Right?

Pandoras , yeah that’s TOTALLY what I meant. Not. Are you looking for an argument today?

I’ve seen some absolute shit leaders in my time, I’ve seen really shocking social media behaviour really letting themselves and the organisation down. We don’t know what exactly was the tipping point.

I agree with the leaders sentiments but we’re going on a one sided story.

f I follow current policy, lots of MNers will remove their girls from my unit in case we're all closeted predatory trans women or in case we might admit predatory boys-who-says-they're-girls

You can’t win now eh :(

In reality most parents don’t bother reading the debates on MN and use you as childcare (which you aren’t of course) Average joe knows sod all about this.

I guess we just don’t know what was exactly that pushed them.

One of the leaders in question has posted updates on here. She has stated that the proximal cause was them going to the papers with their concerns.

She's come across as reasonable and credible to me. She has tried raising concerns with the organisation for a long time before going public.

It's important to be cautious and avoid scaremongering about Transgender people, but I don't think that's what these leaders are doing. It seems to me that GG could have headed off these issues fairly easily by putting some pretty basic protections in place:

• Male GGs not to share accomodation and facilities with female GGs.
• Basic age appropriate safeguarding to be in place.
• Trans women leaders to be subject to the same restrictions as other male leaders unless they have a GRC.

Note that trans GGs will not be female in any legal or biological sense- they are boys with long hair. If GG want to allow gender non-conforming boys to join, then that is their right; but at the point where teens are sharing showers/toilets/accommodation I think it's reasonable to ask them for clarity.

On the bright side, if all the trans-bashers left then it'd solve my waiting list problem and create spaces for the girls who want to experience the amazing range of brilliant activities that we VOLUNTEER to offer them.

As a society I think we really need whistleblowers - people who are prepared to go public with their concerns after trying (unsuccessfully) to get them resolved through internal procedures.

My own sense is that when people get pushed out of a job or role that they very much valued because they've acted in accordance with their conscience, it's good to offer them support.

Rather in the same way that many of us would want to support a survivor of abuse, rather than saying 'Oh she probably did something wrong herself, and so we really shouldn't comment.'

Pandora I agree with everything in your response

Except the last bit - no I’m saying we’re going with a bloody Times article.

@BringOnTheScience if all the trans-bashers left

Who has bashed trans people on this thread?

I'm sure some who are prejudiced will jump on this (tbh that's one of the things I hate the most about these threads) but do you really think everyone who comments (or worries in silence) doesn't like transgender people?

Is it impossible that there are any legitimate concerns? Are you really saying we can't whether safeguarding rules work?

Okay, then how about 'genderfluid' biologically male teenagers who want to join GirlGuiding. Is it a good idea for adolescents who will sometimes identify with their male biology to share sleeping accommodation with girls. Most of us as parents feel that there are risks involved in mixed sleepovers. How do we feel about our daughters getting to have mixed sleepovers at GirlGuiding activities - but for us, as parents, not to be informed.

BringOnTheScience

On the bright side, if all the trans-bashers left then it'd solve my waiting list problem and create spaces for the girls who want to experience the amazing range of brilliant activities that we VOLUNTEER to offer them.

Are you insinuating that safeguarding policies should be more lenient for organisations who rely on volunteers?

and how not in the slightest. I'm simply reminding everyone that we are not paid. We lead our units because we choose to. We enable amazing activities to happen because we choose to.

We don't get paid to put up with complaints and insinuations. We don't get paid to be criticised for doing our best. We don't get paid to take this flak.

No-one makes girls join Guiding. If you don't like their policies, then don't join.

If the amazing range of activities includes a decidedly relaxed attitude to safeguarding and the law, then the reputation of Girlguiding as a whole will suffer.

I think the flak is directed towards the (paid) leadership for a lack of responsibility and judgement in terms of policy formation.

I really don't care how amazing any individual leader is. If the policies demonstrate a flawed understanding of the law, then it is easy for predatory individuals to regard that institution as a place where they can operate.

The policies are all laid out. They're not lax. It's actually very onerous arranging residentials.
Example - enable ALL young members to have access to private changing.
www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members

If you don't like it - don't join.

No-one makes girls join Guiding. If you don't like their policies, then don't join

It isn’t that simple. I sympathise with young transgirls, it must be very confusing and difficult but equally the prospect that girls are being pushed out of a girls’ organisation for being uncomfortable about sharing changing/sleeping facilities with someone with a working penis is not ok. And shame on anyone who thinks it is.

There’s a balance to be struck. GG only looks at the perspective of the trans child and ignores that of the girls.

Absolutely disgusting!!!!

"Young trans members should be able to share accommodation with other young members if they wish."

and

"The option of having an alternative accommodation arrangement is open to any young person if it is requested."

Yet leaders are not allowed to tell other girls / parents that a child is transgender, so how does a child or their parents who feel uncomfortable about this situation request alternative accommodation?

Those guidelines make it clear that a trans person is welcome to share sleeping accommodation with the girls. I wonder how comfortable a girl would be requesting to sleep separately from a male teenager with a leader who describes basic concerns about safeguarding as 'trans hatred'.

I've looked at the link Science. Thanks for that. I note that it is focused on the wishes of the young trans person and not the wishes of other Girl Guides. For example, what about the wishes of a girl who doesn't wish to have sleeping accommodation with somebody of a male body. What abouta Girl Guide who has already been sexually abused and/or bullied by boys - and such abuse and bullying is widespread - what about her needs? Of course if a girl wants to take part in female-only activities, but now finds that these no longer feel that Girlguiding offers a safe space - do we just shrug our shoulders and say 'Tough. Go somewhere else?' - And where else is there for girls in this situation to go?

I wonder how comfortable a girl would be requesting to sleep separately from a male teenager with a leader who describes basic concerns about safeguarding as 'trans hatred'

Well, exactly.

GG policies arent inclusive and it dont following best practice for safeguarding.

Girls who identify as boys are 'eased out'. Girls who object to mixed sex sleeping are being 're-educated'.
And their parents are not informed that sleepovers are mixed sex.