Now Girl Guides are expelling Guide Leaders and closing down their units for raising safeguardiing concerns

[ManicSunday]

A number of Guide Leaders raised safeguarding concerns about a Girl Guides policy which:

a) allowed adults males who self-identified as being women (without a Gender Recognition Certificate, medical diagnosis or any treatment) to become 'female' Guide Leaders
b) to require units to allow teenage boys who self-identified as girls to not only join the units and attend residential trips but to share tents and communal showers with the girls
c) that parents must not be informed that this was going on

It has now been confirmed that two of the Guide Leaders who raised safeguarding concerns have been expelled from the organisation and their units closed down and that at least five more are currently being subject to disciplinary investigation over this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-guide-leaders-expelled-for-questioning-trans-policy-550x7m55r?shareToken=65c8d021613171819f6979c0ab3d8902

This is bonkers, isn't it? When we have got to the stage where you can't even discuss safeguarding issues, something has gone badly wrong.

So set up your own all-cis-straight-girls-only club. Problem solved.

No one said anything about ‘straight’. Shame you are resorting to baseless hyperbole instead of engaging with the issues.

Did everyone sleep through intersectional feminism for beginners?

BringOnTheScience Current 'inclusive'policies exclude many BAME girls, how do you defend that?

I know someone who was called into the office at work (leisure centre) for raiding concerns about safeguarding due to the new policy of people accessing the changing area that is best for them.

The centre is very old school with distinct male and female changing areas.

She us being sent on a training course with an organisation so she can understand that TWAW and stop spouting nonsense about safeguarding of women and girls.

The leader pictured in the article is also featured on some of the Fair Play for Women campaign leaflets.

Helen Watts, if you're reading, I really admire your bravery for speaking out about this issue. Is there anything we can do to support you, other than writing to the organisation?

I am engaging with the same level of baseless hyperbole as many other posters on these threads! If a penis is a threat then a lesbian must be too... or is everyone in denial that there are lesbian leaders and young members?

I am deliberately being a bit provocative because that doesn't seem to happen often from this standpoint.

upstart can you send me a link please? My unit welcomes all regardless of race, religion, ability, needs, orientation, etc, etc.

I think the clear message sent out by the Girlguiding's LGBT - or T - policy is that if you have a male body (which give or take a few puberty blockers) is what those trans people wanting to become Girl Guides will possess it is your needs and wishes and preferences which determine all aspects of residential activities - and perhaps other activities too. This doesn't actually strike me as a very liberating experience for girls. It's about saying a) Shut up b) be 'nice at all times and c) your feelings and needs don't matter.

Not exactly brilliant or amazing.

Can teenage lesbians get each other pregnant? Do lesbians commit 98% of all sexual offences? Is it social convention to split spaces by sexuality due to privacy, dignity etc?

If a penis is a threat then a lesbian must be too... or is everyone in denial that there are lesbian leaders and young members?

Erm, the difference being that lesbians (real lesbians at least) are women. For the sake of privacy and dignity, communal showers and changing rooms are segregated on the basis of sex (ie these are situations where everyone is naked so people feel more comfortable being in presence of others who are of the same physical sex as them) Why on earth would you segregate in these situations based on whether you (allegedly) have a pink brain or a blue brain? It makes no sense.

Lesbians do not present anything like the same sexual threat as men.

Lesbians are not men.

Thinking that lesbians are "like men" simply because they fancy women is regressive in the extreme.

Lesbians are women. Women and girls are much safer with other women and girls than they are with men and boys. This is statistically irrefutable and backed up for the vast vast majority of women by our life experiences.

"Those guidelines make it clear that a trans person is welcome to share sleeping accommodation with the girls. I wonder how comfortable a girl would be requesting to sleep separately from a male teenager with a leader who describes basic concerns about safeguarding as 'trans hatred'."

IIRC the guidance does not address what can or should happen when the children are away on camp and a girl is expected to sleep with a penis person. The guidance only says what can happen if the penis person feels uncomfortable.

The parents nor the girls can be asked in advance if they are comfy with mixed sex. (This is what happens with the scouts).

GG seem to have forgotten than girls can get pregnant. Cunty girls I mean not penis girls obviosuly.

Split spaces by sexuality??? Er no. I don't recall ever seeing changing rooms labelled for gays or straights!

I'm so sick of lesbians being used as a bogeyman in discussions about single sex spaces. Lesbians are female full stop. That this nonsense is coming from someone who claims to be in a position of authority over impressionable young girls makes it even worse. What a fabulous advert for the GG movement.

Exactly, which is why your comments about lesbians was offensive nonsense.

"Can teenage lesbians get each other pregnant?"

If one of them has a cock, yes.

@BringOnTheScience

The policies are all laid out. Indeed, from your link:
young trans members should be able to share accommodation with other young members if they wish
Members are entitled to use the facilities of the gender that they self-identify as.

They're not lax. Yes, they are quite strict about expectations on leaders. The policy makes clear that the trans GG only must be consulted about accommodation and facilities, but other GGs and parents must not be made aware that a child is not female.

If you don't like it - don't join. This is a huge change for what was, until recently, a single sex organisation. Once more:

• Do you really think existing members/leaders should have no say? No grasp of the idea that some long standing leaders may feel this is a fundamental shift in the nature of the organisation they love?

• Do you honestly think this is just 'trans-bashing' and nobody might have genuine concerns about this policy?

I am engaging with the same level of baseless hyperbole as many other posters on these threads! If a penis is a threat then a lesbian must be too
Yet you say you dislike trans bashing? Ramping up the rhetoric just fuels transphobia (and homophobia from you it seems). If you really think a poster is trolling- ignore them. It would be more helpful to try to see the other point of view and help push GG (if you are a leader) to a resolution which addresses concerns and takes the poison out of it all.

if you are a leader yep... and mum of two non- straight DCs too!

BringOnTheScience

If your unit has any girls who, for example, have to cover their hair, they are not allowed to share mixed sex sleeping.

GG new policies say you are not permitted to tell their parents if sleeping arrangements are mixed sex or not.

How does this square with your insurance?

Homophobia from me? Not on your life! Just pointing it out for the "uncomfortable getting changed in front of" crew, who are here in addition to those not wanting penises around.
Mum of two non-straight kids

For those transactivists that love to say that (female) lesbians are a threat to girls due to being attracted to women, let me take one step back from that and give you two scenarios (not lesbian-related but they illustrate the point):

a) a woman is walking alone late at night along a dark, isolated street, she notices that a lone male is following not far behind her.
b) a man is walking alone late at night along a dark, isolated street, he notices that a lone female is following not far behind him.

Now, in both these cases the person behind them is very likely to be heterosexual (or bisexual) and, therefore, potentially sexually attracted to the individual in front. Who do you think would be most scared - the woman in example a or the man in example b?

Because according to your 'but what about the evil lesbians?' example they should be equally scared as the chance of the person behind them being attracted to them is the same in both situations.

Except we know this isn't the case. We know the woman in example a would most likely be scared (and more likely to be at risk of sexual assault) and the man in example b would not even register the woman as a threat.

Because the major factor here is not attraction. It is that males (however they identify) commit about 98% of sex crimes (and predominantly commit them against women), that males are socialised to feel entitled to women's bodies and that males are physically stronger and could overpower the woman.

science

Could you tell me the basis for segregating boys and girls of this age in the first place?

And then tell me how you think gender identity has anything to do with these reasons?

Transgirls are being permitted to access girls’ spaces because from their perspective it affirms their identity. That is important, but it needs to be balanced against the reasons for segregation in the first place and the impact it has on those. There is no such balance. Affirmation of the transgirls is the only factor being considered, and that is unacceptable.

The most important thing is to speak to the young trans member about their wishes and what would make them most comfortable and supported. Some may prefer to use communal spaces

WHY is that the most important thing? Why doesn't this policy say
*The most important thing is to not make assumptions and to speak ensure that all the children feel comfortable and supported.'

Incidentally, of the growing number of transBOYS (female children) that we know, not one has ever said they'd like to use the boys' accommodation, boys' loos or boys' changing room. Can't start to guess why.

None of my Brownies cover their hair. As the policy states, we do everything we can to make everyone comfortable. For example, if I should in the future find myself arranging a sleepover with young members for whom this would be an issue, then we'd choose a venue & allocate room groups accordingly. Simples.

I think I have no problem with a GG leader who says, 'I'm not very comfortable with the current guidelines re how to support trans people. But I'll try to stick with them while also supporting the rights and needs of girls and also raising my concerns within the GG movement.'

However, I'm not sure how happy I'd be with the group leadership offered by anyone who dismissed genuine safeguarding concerns as 'trans bashing' and was basically saying 'Good riddance' to parents and girls who felt the GG guidelines did not adhere to the provisions of the Equalities Act and do not serve to empower girls and young women.

allocate room groups - would you allocate a single room or a shared room to a transgirl?