Now Girl Guides are expelling Guide Leaders and closing down their units for raising safeguardiing concerns

[ManicSunday]

A number of Guide Leaders raised safeguarding concerns about a Girl Guides policy which:

a) allowed adults males who self-identified as being women (without a Gender Recognition Certificate, medical diagnosis or any treatment) to become 'female' Guide Leaders
b) to require units to allow teenage boys who self-identified as girls to not only join the units and attend residential trips but to share tents and communal showers with the girls
c) that parents must not be informed that this was going on

It has now been confirmed that two of the Guide Leaders who raised safeguarding concerns have been expelled from the organisation and their units closed down and that at least five more are currently being subject to disciplinary investigation over this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-guide-leaders-expelled-for-questioning-trans-policy-550x7m55r?shareToken=65c8d021613171819f6979c0ab3d8902

This is bonkers, isn't it? When we have got to the stage where you can't even discuss safeguarding issues, something has gone badly wrong.

"If I should in the future find myself arranging a sleepover with young members for whom this would be an issue, then we'd choose a venue & allocate room groups accordingly. Simples."

I'm curious, what would you do if the transitioning child wanted to share with their peers, but none of your members wanted to share with them?

McTufty I didn't say that I do advocate segregation. I just happen to have got involved with Guiding.

As I said earlier, I'm dammed if I follow the GG policies and dammed if I don't. Either way, the volunteers are copping the flak and we don't deserve that.

I can't believe that there are women who really see lesbians and men as the same

I'm off to plan the rest of the term's activities now. New badges to do.

It's been interesting talking.

"I'm curious, what would you do if the transitioning child wanted to share with their peers, but none of your members wanted to share with them?"

Tell them to leave GG, I think it was.

@bringonthescience have fun planning and I look forward to your answer when you return.

Ooooh has Jane's new "Exteme Porn" badge been launched yet?

Or Pip's "I'm a little teapot" badge?

Or is it Aimee's "Never Kikshame Adult Baby Fetishists?"

Homophobia from me? Not on your life!

I understood your use of irony to make your point. I'm suggesting it isn't helpful using such tropes even in the way you did- because it's not really addressing the concerns it's just raising the temperature of the argument.

Either way, would you like to answer my questions? I'll rephrase again:

• Do you really think we are all motivated by transphobia?
• Do you think there is no remotely valid safeguarding argument for sex segregation?

If I should in the future find myself arranging a sleepover with young members for whom this would be an issue, then we'd choose a venue & allocate room groups accordingly.

The guidance is clear that it must be trans GG's choice, not yours.

the volunteers are copping the flak and we don't deserve that.
Could not agree more and I'm very aware of how much work volunteer leaders do. Thank you.

@OP
For those transactivists that love to say that (female) lesbians are a threat to girls due to being attracted to women

I don't think the people who genuinely make that argument (and I choose to accept Science's word that she wasn't doing- she was being facetious) are remotely 'trans activists'. I think they are anti-women activists of exactly the same ilk as incels and MRAs.

Ah yes NothingOn, because as Lancelottie quoted earlier

"The most important thing is to speak to the young trans member about their wishes and what would make them most comfortable and supported."

speak to the young trans member about their wishes

That is repeated several times in the policy and several MNers who have asked the GG hierarchy for advice has said they have been told that a trans GG must be allowed to share rooms/showers/toilets with girls if they wish.

Emails from GG suggest they think this is the law and they would be in violation of the EA if they were to put sex based safeguards in place.

Yes and the comfort and prefences of the girls IIRC was not mentioned at all.

the assumption is that they will do as they are told.

Because they are girls and girls shuold do what they are told and not make a fuss & etc

New "speak out" badge by arse

I understand GG saying they must be allowed to share, but I want to know where a leader stands if the other girls refuse to share with the transitioning member. Surely they can't be forced to do so just to ensure the transitioning child gets what they want.

If a penis is a threat then a lesbian must be too.

I find this so incredibly offensive.

98% of sexual offences are carried out by men. The tiniest number of rapes (all committed by men) result in conviction. We live in a society where 2 women are killed a week by men. Sex segregation is extremely important to a great many women and girls.

How are lesbians a threat?

Ah cross posts there

"Yes and the comfort and prefences of the girls IIRC was not mentioned at all.

the assumption is that they will do as they are told. "

It's very disappointing that the needs and wants of the other girls are overlooked or ignored, so much for the every girl mantra.

It is staggering how many people are blind to the role and relevance of a penis when it comes to sexual violence.

Well it's not just the dick it's the person it's attached to

I keep having images of person-size dicks wandering around teh place

Well yes but the point is that it is whether or not the person has a penis that is relevant, not how they identify.

Most people with a penis pose no risk, but because of those that do, we have previously segregated by sex. I don’t see how someone’s identity means girls should feel any differently about that person and their penis being in their female space.

Well quite.

However, it's not the dick that actually does the assaulting. It is the decision of the (male) human it's attached to. And that decision comes about due to a bunch of stuff (nature / nurture?) with a large portion of it being male sexual entitlement.

The penis is essential in rape in the UK but it is the weapon used by the man it is attached to.

I'm sure you know what i mean

Our problem isn't with dick per se but men & boys. NAMALT but sex segregation for certain things is accepted by most men in society, they don't get arsey about it.

Of course when you say this it's all "some men have vaginas" and then we have to start wibbling on about penis people and presence of a cock.... We mean men and boys though, old school dicky-doo-dah ones.

the loss and obfuscation of language is appalling.

I don’t take issue with that. I do feel though that because of the context of it being people with penises who do the offending, women and girls are entitled to feel uncomfortable even if that particular boy/man/transwoman/transgirl is themself not intending to commit any such act.

Its all such a shame, my daughter will remain at rainbows as its a small all girls unit but will not now move on to brownies or guides unless these policies change.

yes quite McTufty

But girls and women are perfectly reasonable to not want to take their clothes off in front of men/boys (using the standard definition understood by 99% of the worlds population) evenif they are fully dressed.

I have lost patience with the whole "naming people by their body parts" thing that has been foisted on us.

99% + of the worlds population know perfectly well what male / female /boy / girl / man / woman mean. The latter 4 are NOT "social categories" they are categories based on biology >> the raft of biology that separates male humans from female humans and that when it all comes together in a person makes it almost always pretty bloody obvious which they are (post puberty).

I want the language back.

" If a penis is a threat then a lesbian must be too... or is everyone in denial that there are lesbian leaders and young members? "

How homophobic! Firstly for assuming that the safeguarding and privacy concerns are only because of sexual attraction and secondly for assuming that those with penises (trans or not) are attracted to females.

This is about the rights to remain private from those of the opposite sex, it has nothing to do with ideas of gender.

I can't believe that GG UK is today telling girls to speak out on Twitter when they have shown how they treat whistleblowers themselves.

@muttmad, i'm very sorry to hear that, but understand your reasons for not letting her continue.

Pro more-extreme-trans-ideas often = homophobic >> loads of evidence for that

Not saying everyone who is pro trans is homophobic but that a large number of the leading orgs and people who are at the forefront of dismantling existing sex based stuff have come out with some homophobc shockers