Is this a culture-based thing or an individual thing?

[MinotaurWildThing]

Let me be clear that i'm not criticizing, I'm trying to understand where some behaviour is coming from, in order to know how to react.

For context, I'm an ex-academic, and I have worked a bit in the Czech republic, and Poland, and have had some Russian colleagues. In general, the women seemed to have a model of femaleness that involves being very strong and competent at everything they do - good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone. Is this kind of right? Or have I just met a bunch of women like this (university-educated postgrads and academics who speak fluent English is probably a fairly heavily selected bunch) and assumed that these were national characteristics (for want of a better term)?

I am now no longer an academic, but a mum of one child, who at nearly 2 still is an absolutely horrific sleeper, so, as we don't really need me to work, I haven't gone back to work and I spend most of my time at playgroup or extracurricular classes or library/gardens/pool/museums with DS. DS is a nice bright observant little boy with lots to say about things, whose social skills are improving rapidly, and whose physical skills are getting there just fine. I also can't currently drive due to PTSD after last driving 20 years ago in very stressful circumstances, though I'm working on that. I don't have any particular need to drive.

Every time I see either of two female friends that we know through DH's work, one Russian and one Polish, I will be heavily criticized, as the only topic of conversation through the entire social occasion, for all my failings - that I haven't taught DS how to sleep (by "cry it out" which they used on their kids) and thus am damaging his brain, that DS isn't as independent as their children and thus must have something wrong with him, that DS can't yet ride a balance bike and thus is mollycoddled and uncoordinated, that I want to waste DS' education by teaching him foreign languages (and of course this is a pointless exercise as I am a native English speaker living in an Anglophone country and thus apparently i must therefore be useless at foreign languages myself), that we don't go to our running club any more (which is where we used to see these people weekly) and thus I must be lazy and unfit, that I can't drive, that DH is insufficiently committed to his work because he very occasionally might pick me up from somewhere at 5.15 pm and of course it's infra dig for an academic to be home before 8pm, that I don't have a job and thus am lazy and contribute nothing to society, etc etc.

Is it normal in some areas of society to make conversation by offering suggestions to others on how to improve their lives? Are these women just spectacularly tactless? Or should I view them through a local lens and think they're just bloody rude and extremely bitchy?

I have Eastern European cousins, and quite separately several Russian and Slovenian friends, and I can state with great confidence that the women you’re talking about, are colossal cunts.

I genuinely think it's cultural. These people have come from a heritage which made extreme sacrifices through the war and Stalinism, that sanctified both motherhood and social contribution.

That doesn't mean you have to endure it though- if your 'friends' make you feel shit, make new ones.

Just to clarify, i do have plenty of friends who don't make me feel shit.

We just happen to see these ones via others who are nicer, and because DH works closely with one of the husbands and used to supervise one of the two women.

I also met many women in Prague, Wroclaw, St Petersburg who were utterly lovely (if a bit intimidating).

These ones aren't lovely at all even if they are intimidating. Also, their children will probably turn out just fine, but at the moment, they are not very nice preschoolers, possibly because friendship, empathy, kindness aren't really on the radar as useful characteristics from their parents. So DS, who is timid, a bit clumsy and several years younger than them, tends to end up not interacting with them because they're scary.

It is cultural, they probably think they're encouraging you, not criticising you. Personally I could do without that sort of encouragement.

BitofFun said: "These people have come from a heritage which made extreme sacrifices through the war and Stalinism, that sanctified both motherhood and social contribution." Spot on.

You're doing fine. Have as little to do with those women as possible for now. Later on maybe their good points will come to the fore.

Are you upset because there may just be a grain of truth in their crtiticism ? Good friends do criticise you know .

Good friends don’t leave each other feeling shit!

I have lots of connections with Eastern European women and in my experience it is cultural, even from women who have lived in the UK many years. Forthright with their views, determined, often single minded and not likely to compromise, no filter.

Disclaimer - not every Eastern European woman, of course.

Are there reasons why your DS does not sleep?

that we don't go to our running club any more (which is where we used to see these people weekly) and thus I must be lazy and unfit

Just say that you didn't enjoy their company so run elsewhere now (I wouldn't but it would secretly make me smile!). I would pull them up on some of their comments as they need to understand that this approach is not seen as polite here and they are crossing boundaries.

Try EMDR for the PTSD.

In general, the women seemed to have a model of femaleness that involves being very strong and competent at everything they do - good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone. Is this kind of right

I agree strongly with BitofFun, you only have to look back in history as far as WW2 to know what incredible hardship the Polish and Russian people went through. It has given them a steely resolve and determination. Your DHs colleagues will have been bought up by parents and grandparents who may well have suffered persecution and antisemitism (omg if we think Labour are anti Semitic... the Polish people will have suffered actual anti Semitic laws put in place by their own country). Which made them and consequently their children feel they cannot trust people, so they become extremely competitive as if to put them into a position of strength (I can't blame them for that, based on their history).

Being a former academic, OP, you're asking the right question rather than jumping to a binary conclusion. I don't see them as massive cn*ts, it just makes them different due to their history and upbringing, but it can make them difficult to socialise with.

@Nanna50 There are indeed reasons why DS doesn't sleep. Allergies not yet sorted out, leading to silent reflux from probable eosinophilic oesophagitis, as well as eczema and the odd projectile puke. Silent reflux is still uncontrolled and keeps him awake, but all this has been going on since he was 4 weeks old and he's never really learnt to sleep. Also, he seems pretty fine on very little sleep, and his dad and maternal grandmother both do fine on 4 or 5 hours a night.

@tessieandoz Yes, of course there are grains of truth in their criticisms, so seeing these women does get me down quite a lot, but just as most people would say there are two sides to the "SAHMs contribute nothing to society and are lazy f*ers" story, and two sides to the "non-drivers are lazy cheeky bastards whether or not there are reasons like PTSD that might mean they don't drive" story, I think there are numerous ways to view most of the features that these women seem to like to criticize loudly at every opportunity.

I don't criticize them for being rude (as judged by local standards) or for having shovel-jawed pugnacious little s**ts for children, I assume there's a lot about their background that I don't understand and that I have not seen their children at their best and that other people value different things in children's upbringings.

And I hope my comments don't come across as "othering" them, but I do have personal experience, and understand where they're coming from so to speak.

Well, if they're that straight talking they should be able to take a bit of their own medicine shouldn't they? Just throw it back to them.

@BitOfFun, @daisychain01, @Rebecca36 thanks for the perspective here. I've never really discussed history with these people, or with former colleagues - mostly because I didn't want to be insensitive in not actually knowing that much about C20th history specific to the locations/individuals involved (i'm in a completely different area of academia, and my side interests have tended to be in areas other than C20th history). So I was aware that this was probably "cultural" to some extent but wasn't sure of extent or whether one could assume it would apply.

Wow generalise much? They lived through Stalinism and that’s why etc.

Is that like how England colonised over half the world and so thus English people are predisposed to be racist white supremacists?

@MadgeMidgerson perhaps a kinder view might be "England colonized half the world and that's "why" London is rather a lot more multicultural and accepting of diversity than, say, a very small town in country New South Wales"

I don't see people here really disputing the idea that these two women are being tactless, but people are offering perspectives on why these women might think the way they do based on their backgrounds. Of course it doesn't necessarily pertain in an individual case but at a population level some themes do come up fairly frequently.

Culturally, being a friend is saying things that are not nice to your versus talking behind your back. Not beating about the bush. They would expect the same thing from you. Now their truth is not your, their expectations are not yours, neither. You will not frustrate them in exposing very clearly your choice and point of view : some people do not like to speak about the weather. If you can stand it and you find qualities that make you value this relationships, keep them. If you have to be around them for social reason only, and you are not interested in this style of interaction, quietly sail. It's not because you're "at home" that you are not still an alpha. You have all the pointers needed to shift the conversation with their owns wants at the moment, but culturally you feel that you should not go there. I would. I would handle the conversation with some prickling open ended questions and a genuine smile. Some people have to learn that they should not keep on throwing rocks at still waters.

As you know, they are stereotypes. So a grain of truth somewhere inside but definitely doesn't mean they get to treat you like this.
All I'd like to say from your posts is that you come across as intelligent, analytical, competent and together. Don't let them convince you otherwise. Don't justify your life choices. When it comes up, change the subject back to something where you are on solid ground...like toddler discipline ;-)

I'm not british. You are too nice.

A woman who refers to small children as 'shovel-jawed pugnacious little shits' is 'too nice'?

OP, I'm afraid my sympathy for you went with that comment - and tbh your OP does sound a little as if you think your fortunate circumstances make you a rather marvellous mother and your ds is bound to grow up 'bright' and empathic because of it. You are competitive about motherhood too, just less obviously than these women.

What???? Heritage of sacrifice? Eh?

From my personal experience and my extended family and friends from I do not recognise this. Actually it’s a culture, generally, of the opposite. Children go to school at 7, and play until then in a relaxed way. Babies NEVER are left to cry. You rock them, hopefully with extended family, until you go bad. If your baby whimpers your MIL bursts into the room like you are killing it...

These women are just hard nosed arseholes, you get them everywhere

lollll at calling children shovel-jawed pugnacious little shits

and lecturing me about a kinder view of things

where are you from lady, and why do you reckon the culture produces disingenuous, bad faith twats?

Just reread the shovel jawed bit. It may because you turn your nose up at their kids and they feel it, or generally see you as a snob or superior so they are pushing back. Whether you say it or not your opinion will be all over your face, that your delicate child needs the nature you give and must not be like their confident outgoing ones. I’ve had this, my son’s have but big and athletic from twoish and some people don’t like their delicate flowers near that.

I suspect SloeBerries is spot on. They'll have noticed that you see your ds as a superior sort of child and that you believe your parenting (and fortunate circumstances that have enabled you to make a choice about working) to have an important role in that.

Oh OP you doing great. I know how it is, my now 10 years old DS was horrible sleeper ( eczema, allergys, reflux). Me and Dh never used control crying. Some people just don't know when to shut up, honestly I hate behaviour like that. And yes, as I'm from Eastern EU, it is cultural think a bit that's why I stop seeing some friends from my own country.