Is this a culture-based thing or an individual thing?

[MinotaurWildThing]

Let me be clear that i'm not criticizing, I'm trying to understand where some behaviour is coming from, in order to know how to react.

For context, I'm an ex-academic, and I have worked a bit in the Czech republic, and Poland, and have had some Russian colleagues. In general, the women seemed to have a model of femaleness that involves being very strong and competent at everything they do - good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone. Is this kind of right? Or have I just met a bunch of women like this (university-educated postgrads and academics who speak fluent English is probably a fairly heavily selected bunch) and assumed that these were national characteristics (for want of a better term)?

I am now no longer an academic, but a mum of one child, who at nearly 2 still is an absolutely horrific sleeper, so, as we don't really need me to work, I haven't gone back to work and I spend most of my time at playgroup or extracurricular classes or library/gardens/pool/museums with DS. DS is a nice bright observant little boy with lots to say about things, whose social skills are improving rapidly, and whose physical skills are getting there just fine. I also can't currently drive due to PTSD after last driving 20 years ago in very stressful circumstances, though I'm working on that. I don't have any particular need to drive.

Every time I see either of two female friends that we know through DH's work, one Russian and one Polish, I will be heavily criticized, as the only topic of conversation through the entire social occasion, for all my failings - that I haven't taught DS how to sleep (by "cry it out" which they used on their kids) and thus am damaging his brain, that DS isn't as independent as their children and thus must have something wrong with him, that DS can't yet ride a balance bike and thus is mollycoddled and uncoordinated, that I want to waste DS' education by teaching him foreign languages (and of course this is a pointless exercise as I am a native English speaker living in an Anglophone country and thus apparently i must therefore be useless at foreign languages myself), that we don't go to our running club any more (which is where we used to see these people weekly) and thus I must be lazy and unfit, that I can't drive, that DH is insufficiently committed to his work because he very occasionally might pick me up from somewhere at 5.15 pm and of course it's infra dig for an academic to be home before 8pm, that I don't have a job and thus am lazy and contribute nothing to society, etc etc.

Is it normal in some areas of society to make conversation by offering suggestions to others on how to improve their lives? Are these women just spectacularly tactless? Or should I view them through a local lens and think they're just bloody rude and extremely bitchy?

...share a commitment to academic and (narrowly defined) extracurricular enrichment, but that’s not so surprising in any group of very educated professionals.

YYY to this^^

They don’t sound great really, just turn down anything social where they and their kids willing be for a while and if you bump into them in certain places have your phone out or just rush off apologising saying you were just going to call or meet someone. Basically don’t give the time to get started.
If you do see them at parties do the same, ‘oh sorry, I was just heading to the kitchen to get drink, outside to talk to Sandra, I left my cardigan in the car etc.

...my experience is that a) they do speak more directly (whereas I might express my opinion more obliquely), and b) weakness and laziness are openly less tolerated in their cultures. Also gender roles are more set, so it is not a good culture in which to be a gentle, hesitant little boy who cries a lot.

This sounds very like my German aunt and my cousins, her daughters.

...it's possible there is something cultural in the 'praising independence and assertiveness' thing. Certainly in Germany independence and being able to assert oneself are highly prized in children and seen as parenting goals.

This is very much a thing in the US too.

All of this tends to be called 'sharp-elbowed' in England, but there is more than one way of skinning a cat, as they say...

For an "ex-academic" your writing is pretty bad I must say.

It doesn't matter whether this is cultural or individual though does it? These women aren't your friends, they are just acquaintances passing through. If you see them, wave in a friendly way and then quickly move off in another direction. If they corner you in conversation, say things like 'that's certainly something to think about 'if they come up with some opinion and then 'I've got to dash' and literally run away.

There is something in there about modes of expression that certain cultures have around being more forthright (my husband is Eastern European), and also about speech patterns which translate to sound rude but are not necessarily meant that way, so he might say as a suggestion 'you should put the child in nursery', whereas an English person would say 'have you thought about putting the child in nursery?' It would mean roughly the same thing but one sounds blunt and dictatorial when in fact it is meant as a suggestion/topic of conversation.

It really doesn't matter though, you don't need to figure it out, just avoid, smile and run. If you are secure in your own choices (do you need to declare yourself a non-academic if your child is only 2, you could go back into work and work for 20 years if you chose) then they shouldn't be bothering you.

It strikes me, OP, that you are not secure in your choices and that is why their comments are getting under your skin.

Personally I'm not a work ethic type of person and think that if you have the possibility of spending more time with your child and want to do that, more power to your elbow.

As for driving, I know public transport is a disaster in the UK, but there are also too many cars on the road, so if you don't drive, you are benefitting the rest of society, not something to be criticised.

You're right. I remember in school the girl in my class was Russian and she was PERFECT. At everything. She's now a model and so was her mum, and sister. She was perfect at drawing, doing her hair, coloring, handwriting, doing her work, ugh just a perfect person! So jealous !

DP sometimes works with Russians (mostly male though) and they often work past midnight and comment on it if he leaves before 9...

I think some nationalities are “blunter” than others. The Dutch for instance are incredibly direct in general in a way that makes me (British)

But they aren’t rude or critical. These women just found horrible.

i have a Polish dil .

I know from spending many years in Germany for example, that it is normal when you see somebody doing something that could be improved upon (in your opinion) you say it and point out to them the correct way to do things. This is not meant as a put down, but simply what they have always grown up with. This could explain why the Germans are so exact in many things.
I notice with my grandchildren, if they are struggling with something or if my dil notices that they are doing something incorrectly, she will always drop what she is doing and explain gently with a lot of explanation why it would be better to do it differently,

Fwiw My limited exposure to Russian parents on holiday has been all positive.(I related to them they seemed as sentimental as me!) Musing on it maybe it's because I was brought up on an estate with a Soviet era look..(joking.)

Honestly just keep away from people who thump your kid AND ARE HAPPY about it. I have neighbours whose kid would beat up on mine at that age but they were horrified, stopped it if seen and we remain friendly. The kids now have no problem at secondary though they will never be as friendly as the parents.

My own sister is more like these ladies and she's not culturally much different to me..

Sorry that should say "whose kids thump your kid and are happy with it."

Preston's flowers :
I think you’re an extremely unpleasant person with vile and racist opinions

Are the Brits a different race to the Europeans? At least I'm not racist - I did praise the Polish and like the Germans.

I have a good friend from Russia and from the ex-Soviet bloc respectively and neither of them are like this. At all.

These women sound like rude people.

I’ve travelled in lots of East European countries and worked with East European colleagues, and I find their cultural bluntness and honesty very refreshing! I’m autistic, and struggle to understand sub text, facial expression and hints, so I love their direct approach.

As the parent of a former non-sleeper, stop telling people about your DS's sleep! There are an awful lot of people who think that their children are good sleepers because they are good parents, when the correlation isn't quite as clear as that. If people ask, tell a fib and change the subject. It's none of their business.

I would say it's more to do with the same old SAHM vs working Mum argument. That argument transcends class, creed, religion and race.

You do sound a little 'fluffy' for want of a better word.

I don't know about the criticising, but I have worked with lots of people from lots of different cultures, especially lots of people from all over the FSU and many of my friends are not British. Generally, I find Northern Europeans blunt and direct and they'll say it like it is - not something British people are not used to. We have a reputation for not giving a straight answer (no, really!). East Europeans can be forthright like this too, but more than anything I think their history means that they are much closer to the toughness that our forbears would have had in the early twentieth century. For women, the FSU meant that kids were in daycare full time for long hours from newborn - this is something a colleague mentioned when I was talking about my sister's snowflakey approach to her toddlers and not wanting to leave them with anyone. As she said 'and we didn't all turn out to be psychopaths'. Full time work/long hours for mums is/was the norm which means you have little option but being tough with your kids. The people I've known have generally been v bright, educated high achievers, but thinking of the people I know who aren't, there's still that toughness especially about kids. At the same time, the people you are taking about are bright people living as expats - they're not showing much sensitivity for British culture and lifestyles. I suppose it must be hard to know that there's another way and it works and not say something, but once you've said it once, drop it. And be kind with how you say it, especially to someone sleep deprived.

Do you associate with cultures apart from russians/polish? Because you will find this sort of 'directness' in many other cultures, it is not exclusive to eastern Europeans. Even I'd go as far to say many immigrants have to be like this, to survive here. My dh is african, academics and career success is pretty much everything. African women have to be everything to everyone tbh, perfect wife, mother, professional, I can't really live up to those ideals.

Saying that, I know a few sharp elbowed british mums, they do not mince their words and can be quite insulting actually. They push their kids so much and don't really preach being kind/sharing to them, more competitiveness/dog eat dog mentality. It toughens you up to know people like this!

It's cultural but also really fucking rude. Try doing it back, if they can dish it out they can take it.

And please tell them their kids are shovel-jawed pugnacious little shits and report back! That's the funniest thing I've read in ages.

OP, it's not that I haven't "heard" of silent reflux, it's just that a lot of wooly parents who can't sleep train their children seem to self-diagnose a problem of conveniently unprovable "silent reflux", when it's actually just poor parenting skills. Also - the PTSD around driving after 20 years is absolutely ridiculous. You sound like very hard work. Drip-feeding about another child pushing your child "down a flight of stairs" - really? I imagine your son was hospitalised if this were the case? Down a whole flight of stairs? Like, 15 stairs? Really?

I live in a very multi cultural part of London so know many mums from many places.

I think British people are generally very modest and self depreciating in a way that other cultures are not. I know a mum from continental Europe who on the surface sounds incredibly boastful...will happily tell you how brilliant she is in her career and how expensive her latest holiday was etc. Whereas I think British people often will put themselves down and downplay things.