Is this a culture-based thing or an individual thing?

[MinotaurWildThing]

Let me be clear that i'm not criticizing, I'm trying to understand where some behaviour is coming from, in order to know how to react.

For context, I'm an ex-academic, and I have worked a bit in the Czech republic, and Poland, and have had some Russian colleagues. In general, the women seemed to have a model of femaleness that involves being very strong and competent at everything they do - good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone. Is this kind of right? Or have I just met a bunch of women like this (university-educated postgrads and academics who speak fluent English is probably a fairly heavily selected bunch) and assumed that these were national characteristics (for want of a better term)?

I am now no longer an academic, but a mum of one child, who at nearly 2 still is an absolutely horrific sleeper, so, as we don't really need me to work, I haven't gone back to work and I spend most of my time at playgroup or extracurricular classes or library/gardens/pool/museums with DS. DS is a nice bright observant little boy with lots to say about things, whose social skills are improving rapidly, and whose physical skills are getting there just fine. I also can't currently drive due to PTSD after last driving 20 years ago in very stressful circumstances, though I'm working on that. I don't have any particular need to drive.

Every time I see either of two female friends that we know through DH's work, one Russian and one Polish, I will be heavily criticized, as the only topic of conversation through the entire social occasion, for all my failings - that I haven't taught DS how to sleep (by "cry it out" which they used on their kids) and thus am damaging his brain, that DS isn't as independent as their children and thus must have something wrong with him, that DS can't yet ride a balance bike and thus is mollycoddled and uncoordinated, that I want to waste DS' education by teaching him foreign languages (and of course this is a pointless exercise as I am a native English speaker living in an Anglophone country and thus apparently i must therefore be useless at foreign languages myself), that we don't go to our running club any more (which is where we used to see these people weekly) and thus I must be lazy and unfit, that I can't drive, that DH is insufficiently committed to his work because he very occasionally might pick me up from somewhere at 5.15 pm and of course it's infra dig for an academic to be home before 8pm, that I don't have a job and thus am lazy and contribute nothing to society, etc etc.

Is it normal in some areas of society to make conversation by offering suggestions to others on how to improve their lives? Are these women just spectacularly tactless? Or should I view them through a local lens and think they're just bloody rude and extremely bitchy?

It sounds to me like these women are bullies. You need to stick up for yourself more - why are you allowing them to lay into you instead of telling them their opinions are not asked for or wanted and to fuck off? If you act like a doormat, people will walk all over you.

It is not racist to raise culture as a possible reason why these women are so blunt. Culture is important - we do not all behave in exactly the same ways or have exactly the same social norms. British people tend to talk around difficult subjects whereas other countries are more direct. That said, plain rude isn't the norm anywhere, I wouldn't think. And these women are plain rude. Time to be rude back, imo.

Another thing is that people whose kids are straightforward or who have had no personal adversity in their lives, can be very smug about the 'right' way to do things.
The poster who thought the OP was not genuinely suffering with ptsd is an arse. For all you know the OP may have been in wn awful car crash or something.

I didn’t read all the posts so please excuse me if some comments/answers has been already provided.
I’m polish myself, I potentially could be on the ‘these women’ you’re describing.
I completely agree it’s a cultural thing, especially if they were raised in the communist time. They treat you as a true friend and want to encourage you to try new things, help you - in their eyes, this might come across as criticising, being rude, impolite and very direct. In middle & eastern Europe that’s a sign that you’re a true friend who they can tell things as they are (don’t have to sugar-coat). They might appear to be very blunt but they want best for you & your family and pointing out ways you can improve (in their eyes) your life. You can be equally direct with them!
On the other side, if you’ll befriend a polish female, you’ll be become her family. She will lend you her last £10, you can call her in the middle of the night and she will come round.
Of course not all polish/Russian/Ukrainian females are so strong, successful, and sleep-train their kids. However, I think the expects (or ‘benefit claiming immigrants’ if you prefer;) who made it abroad, are completely different to women who stayed in the home countries. They struggle as well, they are tired, sleep deprivated, struggling with weight, work and family. Showing weakness doesn’t come easy as they used to fight for everything in their lives (especially the communist generation) and become very strong with thick skin.
Hope that helps..

Are you moaning to them op? How do they know your child doesn't sleep through? If you're telling them this perhaps they think you're asking for solutions? Often in the UK, we moan to our friends because we just want someone to listen and empathise with us rather than actively give us advice.

MathAnxiety, I really don't see what's all that different between my brief sketch of the cultural assumptions at play, and your lengthy description of basically the same thing.

I feel particularly irritated by your tacit assumption that I don't also have either Irish relatives or Russian friends, but let's not go there.

It isn't always necessary to write 500 words to differentiate your opinion from another's expressed in a couple of sentences.

Not really sure what your point is there, BitofFun.

I am free to write whatever I please, and you are free to ignore it.

There is more than enough room here for all posters with Irish relatives or all posters with Russian friends.

I think the comments about Stalin, WW2, etc are way off the mark. I don't think this is cultural except that there are some very English cultural expectations at work here that are clouding the picture of these other women, and the assumption that the English way of doing things is right.

What I mean is that my comments aren't "way off the mark", as a few posters from ex-Soviet states have noted. And they certainly don't reflect an assumption of English superiority. The sort of cultural qualities/characteristics I implied though seem to align quite closely with those that you go on to describe, so I am confused as to why you would dismiss my comment out of hand.

Why are you letting them talk down to you and criticise those you love? Even if what they talk about is "their way" - so?

Grow a backbone fgs, these kind of people wouldn't even be allowed over my doorstep. You're probably dissing their DCs in your comments as they've done same to you and yours. Not the way to handle it tho

Just stop having these people around you, are you all competing with each other or what!? This is all just silly, they are who they are no matter what their culture is. Don't stereotype.

I don't think the qualities are anything to do with Stalin or a culture of political repression, or the experience of war.

It's more a reflection of life as it used to be lived in densely packed urban and rural societies alike all over Europe, from Ireland to Greece to Norway. I know many Irish women today who wouldn't bat an eye at giving out to other people's children, and women whose culture is German who like to help set you straight when they see you are doing things wrong.

This can be interpreted by someone used to English mores as 'rude', 'forward', 'ill-bred', 'uncivilised', 'ill-mannered', 'tactless', 'judgemental/busybodies', etc., all of which are the opposite of dearly held English values and none of which are positive. The OP is clearly harbouring considerable silent resentment verging on loathing for these women and even for their children, and not just for what they have said about her or what the children have done to her child, but also for the fact that they say such things to her face. She must have some mental picture, some expectation, of how people are supposed to treat each other or she wouldn't have been so taken aback by it all. This is what I would call her ingrained English cultural expectations.

Examples of what she seems to have expected only to be smacked in the face with the opposite are the English expectations that everyone has a duty to see to it that there is 'fair play' for all, everyone should only give voice to 'highly filtered thoughts, aka the necessity to always be polite and tactful, and the idea that every woman's family is her castle and nobody has the right to propose seriously any alternative way of organising her family or her priorities.

There are two sides to every impression formed.

I think the thing that gets up my nose from these women is the harping on and on and on about why what i'm doing is JUST WRONG and what they do is JUST RIGHT. They are intelligent, well-travelled, highly educated (not that that's really a guarantee of much socially) and yet they are stunningly, punitively judgemental and negative at every opportunity.

I don't expect people not to be blunt, and I did say early in this thread that i have met many lovely people in Prague, Wroclaw and St Petersburg who embodied all the positive things I mentioned in my OP but weren't judgemental, rude and negative. The nice ones were blunt (relative to English mores) and liked to offer advice more than many other people I"ve met, but they weren't universally negative and frankly patronizing the way these two women are.

As Mathanxiety says, there are two sides to every impression formed. There is truth in their criticisms of me, but I don't think I am as big an outlier as these two women seem to think I am.

If there were not the work connection with DH, I wouldn't see them other than round the streets, and wouldn't talk to them much - but work connections in a small town are worth doing right. So it makes sense for me to understand where their views are coming from, cut them as much slack as possible, and respond in a way that will make them feel good, as opposed to making them feel as shit as they manage to make me feel...

@RoadmapTofuture thankyou particularly for your perspective. I think you make a very good point about people not showing weakness when they've come from a difficult background. These women would have been young teenagers in 1989, if that clarifies anything (I think this thread probably suggests it probably doesn't, but the thread also demonstrates that I'm definitely not qualified to judge whether it does).

It's not just possible elements of truth in their impressions, it's the fact that you have different expectations of how people will talk to you and what they will say. This magnifies the offense taken.

I suspect they feel you are close enough to them to be given the full benefit of their insights. Maybe the women you knew in Wroclaw, Prague and SPb would eventually have become more judgey and blunt, or they might have been persistent enough for you to have decided they were judgey and blunt (and stubborn).

When you first met the two women in question here, were they like this or did the qualities you mention take time to develop? When you first met did you yourself try to establish common ground in conversation by complaining or focusing on issues (maybe even about the weather, etc). Or did you seem bright and upbeat and gradually as you got to know them did you offer personal info that they may have seen as a plea for help? Could they have seen any admission of problem on your part as an indication that the three of you were close enough to freely exchange insights that you are interpreting as judgement? Could they have imagined you would take their advice and are they annoyed that your issues are persisting? Sometimes there are two drifts to a conversation - it can be like two ships passing in the night even though everyone thinks they are on the same wavelength.

**"Is it normal in some areas of society to make conversation by offering suggestions to others on how to improve their lives?"

Some people love doing this and seem to consider it a hobby!

Mathanxiety - they each seemed to be like this from the off. I first met the Russian at a work party where the first thing past the "so when did you arrive?" [to start your PhD] pleasantries, she told me it was OK that I didn't have a PhD or a proper job, even though it must be really hard for me to be at a party full of academics (she didn't realise at that point that I do have a PhD and did at that point have a proper job as an academic). It's escalated from there.
On the whole I haven't tended to moan given that I had this start with one of them - they glean stuff from conversations I hold with others, in their earshot, just saying for example that no, I haven't gone back to work yet and am glad I haven't had to as DS isn't a good sleeper. Not moaning at length about getting very little sleep, DS having allergies, reflux, paediatricians who offer nothing, or whatever.

OP, there is another aspect I’ve picked up in your initial post. You say that what these 2 women criticise are: your lack of independence (you don’t work or drive), your seemingly lack of interest in your own health/hobby (running) and the fact that your entire world seems to evolve around your 2yo who is not sleeping, is clingy and is less independent than his peers.

Irrespective of culture, your situation is, on the outside, idyllic, you don’t need to work/drive. All you need to do is look after your DS. Where these women come from, what you are doing is putting yourself in a very precarious and vulnerable position. That’s irrespective of culture and social norms. You are at your husband’s ‘mercy’. You don’t have a career, you can’t just hop in your own car, you’re not looking after yourself (eg no more running. You might be doing it and they don’t know, that’s irrelevant) and you’re shattered from looking after a ‘horrific sleeper’.

From where they are standing, you have a host of problems and you’re not doing much to address them.
Expats have an unwritten code, they know how hard it is on their own and they stick together. In any country, in any culture. Their ‘interfering’ and ‘criticism’ hits too close to the bone because you know it’s true. I don’t know these women, but I am foreign, they don’t do it to put you down. They act as family would. Culturally, they are coming out of their confort zone and are willing to put their heart in their sleeves/risk friendships and point out to you not where you’re going wrong, but what you could do differently so it’s easier for you. They’re not doing it behind your back, there is no malice.
My point is: you don’t come across as content and they’re helping. You’re focusing way too much on how rude and irritating they are and not enough on the fact they might have a point and they are doing what friends should be doing.

It’s easier to just have a superficial relationship: hello, lovely weather, hasn’t he grown. They don’t need to have unconfortable conversations. They do it because they see you’re struggling.

I would never ever depend financially on a man, any man. It’s not a gamble I’m willing to take whilst I’m a mother. I have a group of close friends who, like you, don’t need to work, who get allowances. I’m not judging. Each to their own.
The kids have grown, all of them are in secondary school now. My friends are empty. And bored. And I love them dearly. Any suggestions are met with horror: why would I (work part time/volunteer etc). But they also tell me how bored they are, how useless they feel.
Look after yourself, OP.

8FencingWire there's a lot of truth in what you say.

And the general point is taken that this advice is advice and help rather than criticism, and it is grinding me down because advice/help all these women ever do, probably because I come across as wet, lazy and dependent and an excuse-maker.

Just FYI here (as I realise I have probably come across as quite wet here), I'm not financially dependent on my husband, I'm working on trying to get back to driving (having driving lessons where, thankfully, so far, my brain hasn't gone blank with panic), and I plan to return to some sort of work at some point before DS goes to school, and he's booked into a local Montessori nursery from age 2.5. I'm not running, because it's too painful post having DS, but once I can drive I can go swimming instead.

As I said earlier, there are reasons DS doesn't sleep. We're trying to sort them out, we're some of the way along in that process, and there's always the chance he will grow out of a lot of the allergies and the bad sleep. He's timid and gentle, but he's also not yet two, so I wouldn't really expect him to be a model of resilient independence, particularly if he's had a bad night/ is hiccuping and refluxing and itching with eczema/ has just been beaten up by a kid 3 years older than him.

So yeah, in the eyes of some, I'm wet, lazy and dependent and an excuse-maker, and DS is a clingy whiny badly socialized problem child... or actually we're probably not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

So yeah, in the eyes of some, I'm wet, lazy and dependent and an excuse-maker, and DS is a clingy whiny badly socialized problem child... or actually we're probably not that bad in the grand scheme of things

Personally I've discovered that the more you disclose to other people, the more they make inaccurate judgements and try to give "helpful" advice (that isn't requested). They make you the centre of discussion insofar as "fixing" aspects they think you need to change.

People who mean well, and feel the need to give their tuppence-worth can be tedious. Sounds like you may need to disclose less to them, especially if they are only peripheral people outside your inner circle of F+F, and therefore only have that snap shot and don't see the bigger picture of your life

I very much agree with 8FencingWire, speaking as an expat myself.
Expats have an unwritten code, they know how hard it is on their own and they stick together. In any country, in any culture. Their ‘interfering’ and ‘criticism’ hits too close to the bone because you know it’s true. I don’t know these women, but I am foreign, they don’t do it to put you down. They act as family would. Culturally, they are coming out of their confort zone and are willing to put their heart in their sleeves/risk friendships and point out to you not where you’re going wrong, but what you could do differently so it’s easier for you. They’re not doing it behind your back, there is no malice.

You might well encounter the same views on your life from many American women. They wouldn't be able to get over the fact that you don't drive, and you would never hear the end of it from some.

she told me it was OK that I didn't have a PhD or a proper job, even though it must be really hard for me to be at a party full of academics
I don't think she was talking down to you here - I think she was trying to be inclusive and ended up putting her foot in her mouth. She didn't know you had a PhD. It's an easy mistake to make. You interpreted this as a put down but equally she might have been commenting on what hard work the academics were, socially. (Not for nothing is a very well regarded university in the city where I live known as 'the place where fun goes to die'...)

You come across as very stressed out about DS, the pediatricians who are useless, the waffley advice on allergies and reflux, and I think you are less inclined to see the glass half full in the women's advice than you should be, as a result. On top of that, you are taking driving lessons after your long hiatus. Are you seeing a counselor or therapist for your stress, for your PTSD, for support in dealing with the strain of parenting a non-sleeper whose medical issues are not being addressed for reasons that are out of your control?

The thing about resilience is not that a toddler under two should be able to give as good as he gets but that you can tell the older children to lay off him, using direct language like 'Hey [name] - stop that' or 'No, [name] - don't do that' and they can cope with that.

...it is grinding me down because advice/help all these women ever do, probably because I come across as wet, lazy and dependent and an excuse-maker.
You need to speak up for yourself. They can summon up some of their own resilience and cope too.
Have you ever expressed to them directly how irritating you find their constant advice, and your desire that they stop it?

...saying for example that no, I haven't gone back to work yet and am glad I haven't had to as DS isn't a good sleeper. Not moaning at length about getting very little sleep, DS having allergies, reflux, paediatricians who offer nothing, or whatever.
This is a very British conversation gambit in many ways, and it is also an indication that you feel you have to explain yourself, that you feel you owe people good reasons for the choices you have made.

It is British because it is a good old moan. When you offer any reason apart from 'I love being with DS all day and I wouldn't trade the experience for the world' for not returning to work you are automatically talking from the back foot and you are automatically assuming a defensive position. You are offering your life up for judgement. Have you ever considered an assertiveness training course?

8fencing wire is spot on. Daisychain too. Maybe they feel closer to you than they actually are. Reread your posts, take care of the narrative. What you are doing here, you are doing in RL. You have to choose your safe space for pity party time. I am sorry that in your own country you cannot apply your own codes, but you do know that we all live this same fate now, it's a global world. Think long term. Fake it till you make it (I'm talking full recovery here). Read also in between the lines of their own narratives, what they are telling you is their struggles. You cannot miss what you have gone through.

Unless one of these women is your husband's boss, you don't need to be nice and fake friendship with them. Academia is full of people who don't like each other, and groups of people that do. I hang with the ones I like, and vaguely smile at the rest. You don't have to let them know what's going on with your life, your child's sleep, anything, you are NOT friends.

I get the perspective that they are trying to help you, and perhaps some of their views might be worth thinking through, but the plain fact is they aren't friends, sometimes other cultures (like my husbands') people love to tell you how to live your life, but you don't have to have them over/let their kids beat up yours/listen to them self-aggrandize for hours on end.

You seem a bit passive- choose your path and choose your friends.

Having said that, if I were you and I had a PhD I would be thinking very very much about your own career and intellectual needs. I have seen so many academic wives, every bit as clever as their husbands who are lecturers, drop out along the way, due to childcare, perceiving their husband to be more important/cleverer/supporting his career and so on. By 40 the children are at school all the time and they are bored, and even worse, can't then jump back in career-wise, whilst their husbands are a few years off professor (and a second wife in some cases, but that's not all of them obviously!) They end up in part/time temp jobs at the uni often without career progression. I wouldn't sacrifice yourself too much for the domestic idyll unless you fancy keeping it up long-term. Just my opinion though!

I was going to ask if there was anything that promoted deep sleep.

I am so exhausted some days that I don’t drive as the world appears to be tilting and spinning all at the same time.

Been to the doctors twice and all they do is print of a load of stuff that I had already read on the internet and I already do.

I swear this all started when I went through the menopause.
Used to sleep fantastically

Sorry wrong thread.

Probably because I am so exhausted

I think your friends are just horrible. One of my best friends is polish and an academic and she's not a bit like that.

Oliversmummy: havecyou been directed to the studies on cherry juice and insomnia?

You need to speak up for yourself. They can summon up some of their own resilience and cope too

We're talking about peripheral people, acquaintances that the OP meets on a relatively infrequent basis as a general social circle.

She shouldn't have to stick up for herself or be defensive, these people are nothing to her!

Pardon the reported speech but I'd recommend you go onto YouTube and search for "How not to give a fuck"

It's absolutely made for this situation!

That would be the best option, Daisychain, but she is very worked up about it and apparently has been for quite a long time; it is hard to back away from a situation that has hurt so deeply without examining what it is about it that has got under her skin.

I suggested the assertiveness training because she did not report intervening to stop the older children of these women being extremely rough with her DS (and partly because it appears to me that she has let this situation fester to the point where she is really seething). Assertiveness training could give her tools to help her manage the feelings generated by her meetups with these women and it could also help her to keep her son safe (and perhaps also prod the pediatricians into working harder to diagnose the issues he has).