Is this a culture-based thing or an individual thing?

[MinotaurWildThing]

Let me be clear that i'm not criticizing, I'm trying to understand where some behaviour is coming from, in order to know how to react.

For context, I'm an ex-academic, and I have worked a bit in the Czech republic, and Poland, and have had some Russian colleagues. In general, the women seemed to have a model of femaleness that involves being very strong and competent at everything they do - good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone. Is this kind of right? Or have I just met a bunch of women like this (university-educated postgrads and academics who speak fluent English is probably a fairly heavily selected bunch) and assumed that these were national characteristics (for want of a better term)?

I am now no longer an academic, but a mum of one child, who at nearly 2 still is an absolutely horrific sleeper, so, as we don't really need me to work, I haven't gone back to work and I spend most of my time at playgroup or extracurricular classes or library/gardens/pool/museums with DS. DS is a nice bright observant little boy with lots to say about things, whose social skills are improving rapidly, and whose physical skills are getting there just fine. I also can't currently drive due to PTSD after last driving 20 years ago in very stressful circumstances, though I'm working on that. I don't have any particular need to drive.

Every time I see either of two female friends that we know through DH's work, one Russian and one Polish, I will be heavily criticized, as the only topic of conversation through the entire social occasion, for all my failings - that I haven't taught DS how to sleep (by "cry it out" which they used on their kids) and thus am damaging his brain, that DS isn't as independent as their children and thus must have something wrong with him, that DS can't yet ride a balance bike and thus is mollycoddled and uncoordinated, that I want to waste DS' education by teaching him foreign languages (and of course this is a pointless exercise as I am a native English speaker living in an Anglophone country and thus apparently i must therefore be useless at foreign languages myself), that we don't go to our running club any more (which is where we used to see these people weekly) and thus I must be lazy and unfit, that I can't drive, that DH is insufficiently committed to his work because he very occasionally might pick me up from somewhere at 5.15 pm and of course it's infra dig for an academic to be home before 8pm, that I don't have a job and thus am lazy and contribute nothing to society, etc etc.

Is it normal in some areas of society to make conversation by offering suggestions to others on how to improve their lives? Are these women just spectacularly tactless? Or should I view them through a local lens and think they're just bloody rude and extremely bitchy?

You sound like you don't like these women and don't consider them your friends. You don't like their children and their treatment of your son. Why continue the friendship then? Stop seeing them, end of! Your generalisation based on your friends nationality is insulting. I come from one of those countries and I never behaved that way - nor do my friends. Maybe they feel compelled to give you advice, as you never stop complaining and seem in need of it?

Bit of a leap, don't you think? You can't judge somebody on a few paragraphs despite the tendency on MN to do so.

OP, I've messaged you a link to a book I think you might find interesting.

HRTFT but it sounds like they don't like you. Sorry. Have you done something to get up their noses? I don't think any of that is cultural, and I've known a few Russians, Poles and Ukrainians.

Just another cultural perspective on the “unkindness”.
Kindness and especially sharing to me are very British things. Basically you have to give up whatever you’re enjoying because somebody else wants a turn right now.

In Germany as well as Switzerland you would be told in no uncertain terms that somebody else is playing with that now and maybe come back later.

I also think the criticism could be well-meaning advice. Your model of motherhood is very different to theirs. Maybe point it out from a scientific point of view rather than telling them they’re rude.

The only Russian woman I know is a SAHM with a husband who works a lot of hours and does most of the things with her children, she is very aloof and is rarely seen at any event to do with her children. I find that very sad, almost as if she really feels like she doesn't fit in. I've tried to chat to her but she is about as approachable as a cornered lion.

I know the type that you mean though OP, not Russian but other eastern European women.

Can I ask how they look after their children if they don't return from work till after they have gone to bed and even when they are not at work they are at a running club.

I would be asking how many hours per week they actually spend with their children to teach them all the things you are not..

I don't criticize them for being rude (as judged by local standards) or for having shovel-jawed pugnacious little sts for children,

...🤭🤔

Maybe not to their face. 😲

Kindness and especially sharing to me are very British things.

Of course they are. The only nationality on earth where people are kind and sharing

Acopyofacopy is right to a degree. My children are bilingual English/German and although they usually speak German to each other when playing, the word 'share' is always in English because - while there is obviously a corresponding word in the vocabulary - it's just not attached to the same concept. Fair turn-taking is a big thing, but 'sharing' in the sense in which it's drummed into British children isn't really a thing. But such 'sharing' isn't necessarily connected to kindness, which is a much wider concept.

Hang on, before this gets out of hand, please let me say I do not think my choice of words about their kids was a good one.

Their kids are, erm, feisty and independent, in the kind of way that means a younger kid (who incidentally happens to be the same height as them, so no, he's not a delicate flower at all) ends up being punched in the face, grabbed by the jaw, slammed up against a wall, deliberately tripped up, pushed down stairs, etc - all while the parents praise the children's independence and get-up-and-at-em and criticize how wet and dopey DS is because (at the last social gathering where I saw these people), aged 18 months, he cried when another kid pushed him off a tricycle, kicked him, and pushed him down a flight of stairs.

Those people just have rough children. A universal problem. I had to allow some long-term friendships wither on the vine because of differences in parenting styles - my children were very gentle and didn't like being barged or rough games.

I think you need a bit of headspace away from them.
I know what you mean about Eastern European forthrightness. Part of it comes from the language itself, how you actually express things, the words used and the rythm of the language.
Part of it comes from a cultural belief that being direct/forthright is a sign of honesty, trust and friendship.
Another part comes from the strong belief that it takes a village to raise a child.
It’s just different.

Ah, here comes the drip-feed! :)

But hang on, if your ds is 2, and you last socialised with these people when he was 18 months, seeing them is a twice-a-year event at most, so why are they seemingly taking up so much of your headspace?

FWIW, it's possible there is something cultural in the 'praising independence and assertiveness' thing. Certainly in Germany independence and being able to assert oneself are highly prized in children and seen as parenting goals. But if your description is an accurate picture of what these children do, I'm very surprised and tbh consider it a little neglectful on your part that you see these people at all.

brizzledrizzle

The only Russian woman I know is a SAHM with a husband who works a lot of hours and does most of the things with her children, she is very aloof and is rarely seen at any event to do with her children. I find that very sad, almost as if she really feels like she doesn't fit in. I've tried to chat to her but she is about as approachable as a cornered lion.

She may not have any English. A Ukrainian I've worked with told me that 25 years after leaving the Ukraine his wife has never learned English, and knows only other Ukrainians.

I see them round town or on campus a couple of times a week. We have conversations, I ask how they are going, they tell me what I'm doing wrong with my life, what's wrong with DS, etc.

The last social occasion was the last time when we all got together for several hours (and these two women laid into me, in front of a lot of other people, some of whom I see often and like, some of whom I'd never met before - so it was a fairly socially embarrassing thing because they kept turning the whole group's attention to my shortcomings).

Those saying LOL PTSD, consider the circumstances that might generate PTSD, ponder what it might be like to be so stressed that you never get behind a wheel again for 20 years, and then come back and say LOL. Also, check the allergy UK website and perhaps do a Pubmed search if you've never heard of silent reflux.

You need to start commenting to them about how they must be so worried about their children's aggression and lack of socialisation.

Seriously? Why on earth have you framed this as a question about culture when it's clearly about parenting style and your dislike of these particular women and their children . You've gone from not criticizing, just wanting to understand to know how to react to your child being physically attacked. Are you for real?

Either you're grossly exaggerating to get posters to agree with you or you're just not very bright. The way to react to your child being beaten up by other children is to remove them from the situation and prevent it from happening again.

If these women really are criticizing you as bluntly and directly as you claim then you stop seeing them. There really isn't a lot of analysis to be done on it ffs although as you've asked I would say that generally I find some of the cultures you refer to are a bit hardier as their social and political history tended not to encourage the type of wet lettuce wibbling and navel gazing seen so often on MN...

Stop talking to them, they're just rude people.

I have lots of friends from former soviet countries (although not from Russia or Czech), and they certainly are not like your friends.

However my experience is that a) they do speak more directly (whereas I might express my opinion more obliquely), and b) weakness and laziness are openly less tolerated in their cultures. Also gender roles are more set, so it is not a good culture in which to be a gentle, hesitant little boy who cries a lot.

It just sounds like you all don't have much in common, and would be better off disapproving of each other from a distance. We all make different parenting choices from our friends, but when you find yourself disliking the children it is time to step away.

I think you need to find a different group to hang out with. These ones aren’t for you. I think you’d do well, next time they criticise your parenting/life/whatever to say that you’re happy with the decisions you’ve made and find their comments rude, so you won’t be discussing further. And then silence.

Having said that... I have a Russian husband and quite a few Russian friends. They’re a pretty diverse bunch, though they all share a commitment to academic and (narrowly defined) extracurricular enrichment, but that’s not so surprising in any group of very educated professionals.

I think OP you need to find new friends and stop socializing with these women for start. They clearly put you down and make you feel shit which is wrong..you are going a great job raising your child and you don't need friends like this..
I am from Slovakia and living in UK for 12 years now and can tell you that life back in Slovakia and here is very different..maternity leave is astonishing 3 years and you normally live close to family who will help you with children..here is different mothers are going back to work early in order to either keep the jobs or survive lots of us don't have family to rely on for help..I don't know about your friends but me personally..I have a 2.5 year old with no family around and my husbands family living 2 hours away..it's bloody hard and although he sleeps ok he is in our bed and refuses his..so I'm nowhere perfect..also still at home currently looking at our options of childcare and how we will manage money wise..
I don't know if you friends are like this because they come from different country but I can tell you that they are idiots and definitely not worth your while..

...good at sport, good at academia, good cooks, good hosts, good mothers of multiple children, women who take no nonsense from anyone.

I know several Irish women like that. Some of them are aunts of mine...

I think the comments about Stalin, WW2, etc are way off the mark. I don't think this is cultural except that there are some very English cultural expectations at work here that are clouding the picture of these other women, and the assumption that the English way of doing things is right.

My observation of Russian friends is very different from the hard-nosed stereotype presented here - strong family ties, grandparents playing a leading role with the grandchildren, intense focus on academic progress, progress in music (going from instrument to instrument to find what one suited the grandchildren, at great expense), intense focus on the parents' careers with the grandparents facilitating this as much as humanly possible, pride in academic achievement and professional careers, strong cultural ties to Russia and to the Russian language and emphasis on bilingualism, and children encouraged to have an easy and comfortable relationship with all generations of the family, and with all generations of people outside of the family too. There is also puzzlement that teenagers are seen as a separate social group unto themselves in some western societies, not expected to value family ties and barely tolerated out and about.

Wrt the experiences of your DS at the parties and gatherings - don't hold back in polite, timid British fashion if your DS is being beaten up. Address the children who are giving him a hard time. Don't wait for the parents to do this.

Eastern European and Russian culture is quite accepting of the idea that 'it takes a village', and the children are not sheltered within families but expected to interact with and be moulded by society in general and by all the individuals in the child's world, not just the parents; parents tend to support school discipline policies and to seek out schools where discipline is strong, to support and respect teachers, to support the pushing and challenging of bright children, to support demanding coaches, music teachers, etc. - in general, I would say it would be acceptable for you to address the children directly rather than to seek to comfort your DS if situations arise. The assumption is that children have enough innate resilience to take direct criticism of their behaviour from anyone and not to crumple into pieces.

The assumption is also that you are resilient enough to take any criticism directed at you. If you have a bone to pick with them, spit it out. Don't brood on it. Don't be personal with them, cry, call them bitches, etc. State that you disagree and tell them why.