Jump through hoops for a school place

[Seulgi]

DD is 2, we live near two schools, one is an Outstanding Catholic school and the other was an Outstanding State school until it was downgraded to Good a few years back and then in June was given a Satisfactory, we moved into the area 7 years ago and the Outstanding State school was a contributing factor to that.

It's quite shocking how much has changed with it. The other Outstanding/Good schools are oversubscribed, I doubt we'll get in on distance alone.

The catholic school is right on our doorstep, I was looking at their requirements online and priority is given to:

Baptised Catholic children who are resident in the parish and whose parents attend church once in a fortnight for 24 months.

Baptised Catholic children who are resident in the parish and whose practice is supported by a priest’s reference

So this all means DH or I will have to attend Church at least once every 2 weeks, get DD baptised and then have her come to church or attend Sunday school and then make sure a priest ticks it all off.

We're atheist, I haven't set foot in a church in 20 odd years and I can't imagine attending for 2 years. We'd most likely stop attending at the first opportunity. We don't mind getting DD baptised, it won't mean anything to us though, it'd just be her getting some water chucked on her, no offence intended.

DH is heavily leaning towards sending her to the satisfactory school but I can't decide.

Is a good school place worth all the fuss? We'll she be able to do as well in the satisfactory school with support at home, or would you just put up with it and attend for 2 years?

Bertrand, it's a school place not murder, I'll say we go to church so you can attend the school, it's hardly something to get distraught over.

If you do decide to find God can I strongly recommend you find out exactly how Catholic the school is. Weekly confessions, catholic teaching pervading every lesson, the priest teaching Genesis as fact and your child coming home telling you you're going to purgatory wouldn't be unheard of...

As titchy says....check out how Catholic the school is. I am a lapsed Catholic. My son attended a Catholic primary which took children from all faiths and none. The HT said Grace most days at lunch time by rubbing his stomach and saying "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub" which fulfilled the criteria of giving thanks for food but wasn't heavy on religion .

My niece doing teacher training for Primary years though did a placement in a Catholic school last year which had prayers three to four times a day and was heavy on Religion. If you are okay with that for your child then take a look at the Catholic school but be very sure it's what you would want. Have to say a even as a Catholic I wouldn't have wanted that for my DS. Thankfully his school was very inclusive.

Indeed Alfie - what I don't think you're getting OP is how much of the curriculum is Catholic in some Catholic schools. Preparation for sacraments, etc - you don't just pay lip service by turning up twice a month to church, you are required (as a child) to believe. We used to go to Mass every Wednesday and every Holiday of Obligation, fish on Fridays for school lunch, preparation for communion and reconciliation took up around a third of primary 3, ditto confirmation in P6. Singing at funerals - I must have been to around 300 funerals before I left school, all in school time! hymn practise, reading practise, special celebrations, prayers before morning and afternoon school, grace before meals, visits from the priest... and I don't think my school was that Catholic.

If you are non catholic I'm fairly sure you can't just rock up and have your catholic child baptised. We had a bit of an issue getting mine baptised as DH isn't Catholic and we weren't married in a Catholic Church even though we had a formal blessing in the church.

As the other school has shown a lot can change in 2 years anyway!

Are you willing to dedicated to spending the next 9 years at least attending regular services? What about things like first communions along the way?

Education is about a lot more than the academics and you need to decide if that is the type of education you think is best.

Your DD is only 2. The other school has a good chance to improve before then, and who knows the Catholic school could go downhill.

I would not go to such extreme lengths to get my child into a school.

Look at the school though. I am atheist, but actually would consider sending my DC to a school like the Catholic primary I attended. Mass at the end of each term only and Ash Wednesday really. Hymn practice for half an hour most weeks, but I enjoyed singing. RE lessons often and daily in p3 and p7 preparing for communion and cod confirmation, but actually just a story and drawing pictures etc and I like now that I have an understanding of religion as it underlies lots of books/ plays/ tv shows/ culture generally.

Even as a child I was very sceptical- I remember meeting with the preist at my own insistence and challenging his assertions and this was all accepted.

I know this is not everyones experience, but I would heck out the school before I made up my mind. I wouldn't feel bad about doing it all. Why should those Children get a better education? Equally I would look at the other school as it may suit my child better.

I should say though- I would be unable to resist the temptation to explain the problems with religions And why I don't believe to my child.

Where we are the Catholic school is better, but I don't think I would be able to bring myself to send the children- I just would explore it as an option in my decision making.

What percentage of the children taken by the school are Catholic? If there are plenty of non Catholic children your plan would probably work but if they get to the stage of having too many Catholic DC for the places available your DD may well miss out. Being baptised after 6 months would be an easy cut off for them.

Why should those Children get a better education?

I think that's the point though - we only have Ofsted's word for it that they are getting a better education at the Catholic school. OP really needs to go and look at both.

You can't just rock up to a Catholic Church that you have no previous connection with and get your child baptised.

Most priests will want at least one parent to show regular Mass attendance over at least 6 months (with the child) and they will absolutely assume that you are a baptised Catholic yourself. They will probably ask to see a baptismal certificate for the Catholic parent, and you will have to come up with at least one practising Catholic godparent who is prepared to go along with your deception. Most parishes will also require you to attend a pre-baptism catechesis course if it's your first child.

Being a Catholic is quite a tribal thing -if you turn up to Mass or a baptism preparation course and you have no actual knowledge or experience of Catholicism you will stick out like a sore thumb, as even very lapsed Catholics can follow the Mass and say the responses in their sleep. Catholic parishes are hotbeds of gossip, there's no way you could pull off that level of deception without having half the parish talking about you behind your back.

Priests aren't daft, you won't be the first person to try and pull this stunt. Most priests have a very practised line in brush-offs for people who turn up out of nowhere asking for school references.

Often a downgrade can be a kick up the bum for a school that was resting on its outstanding laurels. I know of a few schools that have been downgraded that I would still very happily send my kids to. Personally I wouldn't do the whole church attendance thing, it just feels wrong. Oh and my non Christian children all go to a catholic school!

You say the catholic is oversubscribed but what you could do to help you make up your mind is ask the lea for more info,you should be able to find out what category of the admissions criteria the last child to get in was. Eg the school intake is 30 so once they get the applications they get all the applicants in order and number them. The Catholics will be first I distance order, then other Christians, other faiths, non religious and so on with each category ordered by distance. They then take the top 30. So say they have 40 applicants for their 30 places while it could mean that only Catholics got in, it could also be that a non religious child living further away from the school than you got in which means you could reasonably think that you'd stand a good chance of getting in without going against your beliefs.

Do people not realise the Catholic Church part fund the school. The Catholic children save the lea money. Why shouldn't they get a better education in the same why as dc educated at private schools.

As I always say on this sort of thread, faith schools only do better than non faith schools when they are oversubscribed. Any school which has any form of selection does better than any school that doesn't. More or less by definition.

Why was it down graded

The church funds about 10% of the capital costs of the school, if that, and none of the running costs.
"Under current funding arrangements voluntary aided (VA) faith schools are supposed to meet 10% of their capital costs (15% towards capital projects initiated before 2002), and before the introduction of Academies two thirds of faith schools were VA schools. The running costs of all other types of faith school are met wholly by the tax payer, including if a voluntary aided faith school converts to an Academy. However, the governing body of VA schools are no longer required to contribute towards the costs of capital funding made from the Department for Education’s main school building improvement fund, the Priority School Building Programme."

Locally, Catholic schools used to be undersubscribed and were where traveller kids got sent, and had a bad reputation. Then they filled up with Polish kids and eventually became oversubscribed. Then many established Polish families stopped applying to the Catholic schools as they wanted a more mixed school and didn't want to have to go to church as often as required for attendance certificates, and their Ofsteds have gone down again. I imagine the schools themselves haven't changed much other than having a mix of kids from around the world.

I would be very surprised if you only had to attend for 2 years. For the oversubscribed catholic school near me you have to attend mass weekly the whole time they are a pupil at the school.

Also things can change very quickly, your satisfactory school could be on outstanding by the time dd starts.

I would be more interested in what only makes them satisfactory, lots of it is just box ticking.

Certainly most children locally who go to our nearest Catholic primary are not regular church goers. The priest advertises in the local parish magazine when he does block signings of forms for schools. He signs any forms...and that includes the ones from non baptised children.

However our local Catholic Church is very inclusive....the priest started a summer camp (daily attendance) a few years ago for a minimal fee....£5 per child and aimed it at children who wouldn't otherwise get a holiday. It's been massively successful and has now attracted sponsorship.

I wish all local churches (Catholic and otherwise) would offer similar schemes,

"For the oversubscribed catholic school near me you have to attend mass weekly the whole time they are a pupil at the school. "

What happens if you don't?

"This isn't jumping through hoops to get a school place. This is lying to get a school place. Please don't. Your DC might get in on distance but don't deny a Catholic child the place."

Nope. There are objective criteria - baptism by a certain time and church attendance. OP is meeting the objective criteria. She might be lying to the church about what's in her mind, but that's not, and cannot be, the admission criteria.

Yeah I wouldn't worry about it. It's worth it. They've clearly specified what they want you to do so just fulfill the criteria

Although- I have to agree that you're unlikely to be able to get your child baptised if one of you isn't Catholic. You can lie about that though if you want to. However I do agree you'll stick out like a bit of a sore thumb so maybe ask a catholic friend for advice? Also, pretend you have "found " Catholicism as a family and don't even think of broaching the baptism until you have been attending for quite some time. Unless of course, you turn up and find out they're all laid back (unlikely)

As I always say on this sort of thread, faith schools only do better than non faith schools when they are over subscribed
That's absolutely true, Bertrand. I have to laugh at the why should Catholic children get a better education than OUR kids!! propaganda, it's farcical.

Oh god yes I went to the shittest catholic school ever. Didn't have a teacher half the time. No sport. Alcoholic teachers