Kirstie Allsopp and the NCT - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Last week, journalist and MN blogger Linda Geddes accidentally ignited a heated debate when she appeared on the Today programme discussing NCT classes with a representative from the organisation. Fellow MN blogger Kirstie Allsopp - who's been critical of the NCT before - was listening in, and fired off this tweet:

"Turn to BBC Radio 4 for talk of a book about all the absurd myths surrounding pregnancy & birth. More NCT b** as usual though. Lots of people have good NCT experiences, but many don't. This is a very politicised, dogmatic and in my experience, scary organisation."

As she's done previously, Kirstie argues that the NCT is so focused on natural birth that they are letting down women who don't want, or aren't able, to have one by failing to prepare them - with the result that mothers who have Caesareans (for e.g) can feel stigmatized. Here's her blog post - fellow MN bloggers In a Different Voice and When The Baby Sleeps have also posted on the subject.

What do you think - do you agree with Kirstie, and if not, why? Tell us if you blog about this - and if you don't have a blog (why not? ) let us know what you think here on the thread.

scottishmummy - my post in no way denied people's experiences or responses to those experiences. My post was aimed at correcting statements of supposed fact - like yours, which overstated the position of classes in NCT's work when you said that most people in touch with NCT are there via classes.

True that NCT at local level runs on volunteers pitching in and doing stuff - far, far more volunteers than trained workers. Untrue that you are expected to continue volunteering with no possibility of escape - how would that work, eh? :)

I think it is a very complex issue to debate via an online forum as there are lots of different aspects (csection, breastfeeding, epidural, home birth etc)

So I can say what my perception is and then someone tells me I'm wrong, fine perhaps I am. My opinion fwiw is its strange to have a charity that one of its main and most visible activities is providing expensive classes to middle class women. I also am of the opinion that the NCT is agenda driven and obsessive about pushing natural birth and breastfeeding. Recently for example they appeared to back some paper which was anti epidural.

I think redtoothbrush makes an important point on the first page which perhaps does underpin some of the above.

The thing is that someone can tell me I'm wrong but the opinions I have are shared by many. So there may be something wrong with the NCT or there may be something wrong with how the NCT is seen by some. If the NCT really wants to make things better for all women though either way it is a problem surely?

We went to NCT and found it very helpful. There were a couple of women in our group who wanted caesarians and they weren't excluded or stigmatised. Instead our NCT woman included an hour of what a caesarian involved and what you can do to help yourself after when you're laid up and so on. Can't remember any detail as it didn't apply to me. The NCT woman also spent some time going through water births because that's what I wanted, so she really did try to include everyone.

We were asked to do a couple of sales etc, but we didn't avail ourselves of the offer, and we weren't nagged.

We bumped into her quite often in the shops, and she was lovely, helpful, friendly and interested (might have been putting it on, but she did it very well if so!).

Maybe we were just lucky.

I think sometime it is useful to understand the experience of people that have looked into an organisation and walked away rather than taking on feedback only from the self selecting group that choose to be part of it. I am first time pregnant and thought it would be good for me so I looked into it about 2 months ago.

Firstly the cost is off-putting, because I am working and not on benefits I don't qualify for any discount, but because I am working doesn't mean I have shed loads of cash. Wanting to survive maternity leave means I need to be very careful about where I make spending choices. An antenatal course price of about £50, or about £10 per session I can justify - but the £300 I was quoted is just ridiculous.

I live in what is probably considered a poorer/working class area - there is no local group, and the two nearest are probably a 30-45 min drive away. How many of the people I meet are likely to remain friends and provide that local support after the course I think is negligible. And to answer the person that says set up my own group - I am in no position - I have no experience of motherhood or direct experience of the NCT let alone the organisational skills and time to do this during my first pregnancy because I am looking for support before I can be in a position to then offer other people support.

Its probably the wider reading on sites like mumsnet that makes me feel like the practical reasons above are enhanced by more subjective reasons - how do I know the particular leanings of the course instructor that I would have before I have handed over cash and attended the first session? I would be completely gutted if I could find the £300 for a course to then find the course leader was the type that was only focused on 'natural' and would make me feel like a failure if I end up with a CS or can't breast feed. I am also concerned about the self-selecting nature of the people joining the course - I don't live in a posh area and although I probably am middle class i don't naturally fit in to it, so I am scared that I would be like others that have posted here - would gradually be dropped/ostracized from the groups because I don't fit in. Why pay £300 for a middle class introduction agency when I know that I don't fit that stereotype. I realise that these reasons are subjective and I would probably dismiss them if it wasn't for the specific facts that I can't really afford the cost and there isn't a branch locally.

That said I know I will need support (am new to area and have no friends at all locally other than DP), so I will try to attend a nearly new sale if there is one before birth, put the breastfeeding number into my phone if there are problems and who knows I may find I am brave enough one day to drive to these other areas and go to a bumps and babies morning...

Oops that was a bit of an essay - but wanted to add my view to this already long thread!

I don't know what the 'party line' is, but I went to NCT classes when I was pregnant with both my children (mainly to meet other parents) and I can't remember them promoting 'natural' birth at all. They just explained the various pain relief options available, discussed their own experiences (one of them had had a c-section) and explained what would happen if an unplanned c-section were required. As others had said, I think the focus was on giving mothers information so that they felt in control of the process.

I can only assume that NCT branches vary widely.

Wonder which one Kirstie A went to?

most people contact with nct is classes,and sales.it's their major interface with public
however uncomfortable this is for nct,they have opportunity to act and respond
nct need to regroup fix the brand,maybe regulate and closely monitor classes

Anecdotal I know, but the few people I know who paid for NCT classes did so because they felt that the 'catchment' for the NHS classes was a bit rough and therefore they might not meet 'their kind of people' at them.

So effectively, it seems to me that as well as worrying about nursery catchments, and primary and secondary catchments, people are now worrying about ANTENATAL catchments. God forbid our newborns mix with the working class !!!

As for me, I went to a few NHS classes and found them informative and useful. Unlike some of my friends and family, I didn't feel the need to role play the situations I may be in once the baby was born, in fact the thought of doing so makes me cringe.

There are two aspects to the NCT which we tend to conflate.
One is that as an organisation, they have campaigned for changes to be brought about which have benefitted a lot of women. I don't think this can be praised enough. Gone are the days when we could be drugged up to the eyeballs, shaved, and our babies removed to the nursery. (In this country.)

The second is the classes, which are presumably an extension of the ethos which states that the better informed you are, the better able you are to make choices about YOUR care. However it is not always possible to make choices about your care: perhaps 1.there's a true obstetric emergency or other problem, or 2. the caregiving professional chooses not to make choice available for you.

I think that they try to navigate you through the process where 2 is actually pretty bloody likely, 1 is unlikely but you need to know, and where anyway there is a huge amount about birth, the NHS system, feeding and feeding support etc to take in. It's a nightmare to present and they TRY to make you aware without scaring you.

Unfortunately many of the teachers cannot give the required balance, and as some have said, many of the attendees cannot accept it anyway.

Far worse is the obvious, and I guess completely intentional, (upper) middle-class bias to the whole thing. I suspect strongly that there's an agenda to revolutionise things for those who have the loudest voices, in order that the lower orders will listen. I think it's wholly badly done and misguided and divisive. SO many people are having negative NCT experiences that it's not working, and nobody really wants to listen to those who have good experiences with the NCT, because they're seen as members of a particular group of society which has little in common with most women.

That they persist in not listening to criticism, and properly opening up an improved service for people at all levels of income, means they are sadly becoming more irrelevant - a shame when you consider the honesty of their initial campaigns.

I think it is down to the individual course leader. Ours was of the view that the NHS would try and pin you down to the bed and take drugs unless you went in there all guns blazing demanding to be left alone. It was nothing like that - hosp encouraged walking around, squatting, all fours, everything. I am not sure when the nct leader had last had a baby but her adamence that the NHS make you lie in your back and won't let you move around was very misguided and just made us all very worried. We all went into hospital expecting to have to do battle to get what we needed. She couldn't have been more wrong. She also said that anything worth having us worth oing through pain for. I.e if you have a c section you have somehow failed. Again, very unhelpful and upsetting for the lady in m group who had to have a c section due to a medical condition. The nct leader even suggested ways we could try and make it feel more like a 'proper birth'. Having gob through labour, you take what comes as far as I see it - no such thing as normal or proper!

A huge part of the problem is the individual course leaders, but I think a more pernicious and unpleasant side to the NCT is that they deliberately price themselves so as to be easily available only to the upper-middle classes, whilst pretending to be there to help and represent all women.

Tiktok you gave some examples of outreach work that is done by NCT people whilst not wearing their NCT hat. Why are they not representing themselves as part of the NCT whilst (for example) working in prisons? Is it because the brand has become toxic, is it because their work is not formally supported by the NCT, or is there some other political reason?

'I avoided NCT because I was told that once they get their claws into you they never let go i.e expect you to run second hand clothes sales etc even when your kids are no longer babies.'

This was not the case at all in my experience - although it was more than a decade ago. They were always requesting volunteers in their newsletter but I only helped at one sale and held two coffee mornings over a period of several months, purely because a friend of mine organised the tea lists in our area.

When my second child was a toddler I wanted to get more involved as a posh friend was training to be an ante-natal teacher and this inspired me. They were always asking people to come forward as teachers and bf counsellors, and I phoned a woman called Pam to volunteer my services.
Her exact words were 'what makes you think you can be a bf counsellor?'
I garbled something about being grateful for the help I'd received, having fed two babies into toddlerhood after having a difficult start - but none of it washed.

She basically counselled me out there and then, I can only assume because she thought my non-U accent meant I had no education/intelligence/professional experience - whatever.

I did have fantastic advice and support on the few occasions I called the bf counsellors - but I darn well wasn't welcome to join them!

I've never been pregnant, but my friends have. They've all had bad experiences with the NCT. It's usually been about how terrible epidurals are, how "fulfilling" and "empowering" natural birth is and how a c section must be avoided at all costs.

There is very little support for women who want c sections and women who prefer epidurals and a more medicalised approach to childbirth.

If OTOH, you're wanting a VBAC, or an all-natural birth, then the NCT is very helpful.

The issue is that I'm sure everyone would
Love a natural birth with candles, lavender oil and whale music but you just don't know what will happen. Of you're lucky, it may happen for you that way but sometimes there are just complications. Their mistake is in making out that you can somehow choose a natural birth - a lot f the time choice is taken away, eg induction or forceps needed, baby experiencing problems etc.

Stephanie, the outreach work is not done with people not wearing an NCT hat - that's not what I said. They do it and are commissioned to do it, very much as NCT workers, and will introduce themselves as such. But the course, support group, drop in, whatever it is, may not necessarily be an 'NCT class' or 'NCT group' because it has been commissioned and paid for by whichever agency/organisation/centre . For example, I used to run a breastfeeding support group with a health visitor. The group was called [name of clinic] breastfeeding support group. It was in an area where very few women breastfeed. I don't think many of them had heard of NCT, anyway.

The brand is not toxic at all! Most people have barely heard of NCT classes.

scottishmummy, I can assure you that you are incorrect in repeatedly stating that 'most people's contact with nct is classes, and sales'. Classes (and sales) reach far fewer parents than other work done by NCT.

nct does campaign and do activities but it's brand,its contact with most people is classes,sale
this thread and allsopp attest how people feel about nct.something is significantly amiss
nct supporters should be thinking what can nct do to fix the brand,not denying the problem or saying hey but we do outreach

nct brand is tarnished it has negative connotation and mums report some awful classes
I agree it's getting toxic if it doesn't get a grip on itself,reconfigure to address it's image
nct is a mc introduction agency that's lost it's way.needs ideological and qualitative overhaul

I had similar experience to many with NCT what with my emcs and formula feeding due to no milk let down, was led to believe that the leader I spoke to that NCT wouldn't be for me. However, this isn't limited to the NCT. With my first baby, the midwife held a class on her own time to cover bottle feeding because the RC of M wouldn't allow teaching of anything to do with formula feeding. After my emcs she asked me to come and talk to her current class of mums to be about my experience. With my second, I was constantly obstructed and blocked from seeing my consultant whilst my new midwife and the registrar tried to force me to have a trial of labour. Thank god I knew my rights and literally stalked the consultant who read my previous notes and declared that I was extremely unlikely to be able to give birth naturally. I was not asked to speak to the next class about my experience. I'm struggling to think of any other area of health care where information is deliberately with held. I'm tired of pregnant women being treated like children, patted on the head if we make the 'right' decision and ostracised if we make the 'wrong' decision. We bandy about terms like freedom to choose and birth plans but we don't have freedom to choose. We're allowed to choose how we give birth as long as we choose the method the RCM, the hospitals, the government and the NCT want us to choose. Yes my emcs was scary but my elcs was fabulous. I did what I was supposed to do which was bring two children safely into the world. We are grown, intelligent women. Gives us the facts and let us make our decisions! Rant over! Sorry.

I'm not pregnant yet but now I know I will avoid NCT classes when the time comes!!

Then.. advising about having a natural birth over 40 is absurd.
I think these NCT people should address mothers-to-be needs (of any age) and not only their beliefs!!
Natural birth and breast-feeding might be useful but first these people should care about mums delivering babies safely, on both sides. My mum had two natural births and she nearly died of complications. She regretted she didn't take the chance of a C-section when the doctors offered.
My bro was born traumatized by the difficult natural birth and despite he was breast-fed, it didn't avoid him to get anything... he even developed a form of schizophrenic disorder in his early 30ies.

It seems a whole load of cr@p IMHO.

I do find it very sad people have had such negative experiences with NCT regarding how they give birth, we discussed different scenarios, feeding methods, and were given all options. Nothing was a 'banned' subject.

But people will always discuss and pass on a bad experience story more than a good one IMO.

This thread is making me feel lucky, and want to send my old teacher an email to say

Why can't an over 40 woman have a vaginal birth?

I'm doing exactly what boocanary said and happy to admit it.
My midwife advised they only do nhs classes during the day in my area as the majority of mums that would be in my group are under the age of 20 and don't work. I have no problem with this but I wanted to meet similar people to me. Maybe I am being a snob but I also wanted my DH to come with me. It's got nothing to do with wanting to mix with working class though as suggested. I am new to this area and I would like to make some friends. Nct classes were also highly recommended to me by a friend who like me moved away to a new area while pregnant.
There has been some comments that nct classes are only available to those that can afford them and frankly that's rubbish. They offer huge discounts to those on a lower salary or some benefits etc. if they didn't then of course there would be a clear divide. Each to their own, I can't believe this thread is still going

hmm seems a lot of people who relate negative experiences had them quite a long time ago.

It seems the NCT has already improved substantially and moved forward. What it can do about stuck in the muds constantly banging on about bad experiences they had in the previous decades is less clear.

Although obviously they still need to keep on top of any rouge teachers not towing the new improved party line...

nct indeed have significantly good past deeds.their here & now is the problem
they need to regroup,ensure quality and good practice lose the preachy mc image
with good leadership,and an acknowledgement something gone wrong they can change for better

I just can't believe that all those people who have been so dissatisfied with the NCT have been part of the same organisation that I spent several years involved with in numerous ways.

I've been an active member of 2 very different branches of the NCT and NEVER found anyone who exhibits some of the nastier traits described here (and elsewhere whenever the NCT is slagged off). There have been very mixed membership in both branches - not all middle class by any means - and have definitely accepted people regardless of birth and feeding options.