Kirstie Allsopp and the NCT - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Last week, journalist and MN blogger Linda Geddes accidentally ignited a heated debate when she appeared on the Today programme discussing NCT classes with a representative from the organisation. Fellow MN blogger Kirstie Allsopp - who's been critical of the NCT before - was listening in, and fired off this tweet:

"Turn to BBC Radio 4 for talk of a book about all the absurd myths surrounding pregnancy & birth. More NCT b** as usual though. Lots of people have good NCT experiences, but many don't. This is a very politicised, dogmatic and in my experience, scary organisation."

As she's done previously, Kirstie argues that the NCT is so focused on natural birth that they are letting down women who don't want, or aren't able, to have one by failing to prepare them - with the result that mothers who have Caesareans (for e.g) can feel stigmatized. Here's her blog post - fellow MN bloggers In a Different Voice and When The Baby Sleeps have also posted on the subject.

What do you think - do you agree with Kirstie, and if not, why? Tell us if you blog about this - and if you don't have a blog (why not? ) let us know what you think here on the thread.

[MerlinScot]

tiktok, I'll try to keep an open mind although I don't have a choice, I know that already. I suffer from a degerative issue to the backspine and even the pregnancy itself could be a problem, let alone delivering the baby without any intervention. That would mean me dying or getting paralysed while delivering.

My concerns were more of a general kind and I was just worried that such a big organisation apparently dismissed the c-sections as failures. Ok with promoting natural births and breastfeeding but not with pushing it beyond limits, as it seems they did in a few cases. Mothers should be informed about any of the available opportunities before delivering. That's the support they look for beforehand.
My mum refused a C-section twice because her midwife insisted she could have a natural birth for me and my brother later on. In both cases, she had more than 30 internal stitches. My brother's weight was nearly 10 pounds and he was born with forceps. The psychiatrist who visited him 5 years ago said that he had had 60% more of chances to have contracted a schizophrenic disorder because his birth left him traumatized. Thus, a c-section back then would have avoided my brother being half-bald since he was a newborn and also becoming a mental health patient later on.

[scottishmummy]

newgirl is v much saying she was anxious discussing her cs to nct teacher
"felt really uncomfortable telling people in my group...had to take deep breath to tell the teacher and others" that's indicative of anxiety at disclosing.deep breath, felt really uncomfortable..

now newgirl can come back and elaborate if she wishes,but I read it v much as perceived nct teacher would be critical and/or disappointed

[tiktok]

Merlin, I meant keep an open mind about NCT being able to support you with your pregnancy, birth an early parenting - not about whether you want/need/prefer a section...seems clear you don't have the luxury of choice, but you may still want to know plenty of other stuff, and of course you do have options about other aspects. It's clear some people feel they have failed or feel they are criticised, but honestly, that's not been my experience of classes or my colleagues within the organisation.

For a long time, there's been discussion in the psychiatric literature of a link between birth trauma and later serious mental health problems, and there seems to be something in this...but it is one of many factors and there's no real cause and effect. It's absolutely not the case that forceps = increased risk, and in any case, caesarean section is also one of the birth traumas linked to increased risk, so you really cannot say a section would have prevented your brother's problems. It's complicated, multi-factorial, and to be honest, not part of this discussion.

I'm including this sort of detail in my post, as I would be really concerned that anyone reading this might otherwise think their birth interventions would impact on their babies' later mental health - these are not issues to bandy about lightly on a forum :(

[TinkerTills]

"Do you think that women should be told about choices they might make which could reduce the likelihood of them needing interventions in birth, or do you think this is pushing a natural birth agenda, and might make women who go on to have an emergency c/s feel like failures?"

No, of course not fabsmum! You sound very different to my NCT teacher, who having had three homebirths herself was loathe to even talk about pain relief (she called it "coping strategies") let alone c-sections. She was asked by the group to discuss c-sections and she did not. We were left with no doubt that "one intervention leads to another" and that was to be considered a very bad thing indeed. Its entirely possible that this variation in teaching approach and information delivery is at the root of the problem. If there was a national syllabus and programme of teaching it might help? You could then have an extra session for attendee led questions?

I thoroughly enjoyed my sessions when I was having them, but I'm afraid they let me down when it came to the birth. I'll say it again that the breast feeding support was fantastic and I used it several times (with home visits).

What I'm reading from this board is that the problem is variation across the country.

[scottishmummy]

I have never read robust research linking birth trauma to schizophrenia as causal
I don't want to sidetrack this interesting thread

[tiktok]

scottishmummy you are seeing everything very clearly, and things are fuzzier than that!

newgirl will, I hope, tell us if she expected criticism or disappointment (and yes, she had some anxiety about telling, for sure) but I did not take that certainty from her post.

[tiktok]

I meant 'fuzzier' WRT newgirl's post, not the other thing, which was X-posted..

[scottishmummy]

I'm seeing some knee jerk denial getting in way of thought provoking thread
nct is a valuable organization, alls is being said is systemically something is amiss
I think it's achievable to face challenges of what's gone wrong and emerge as a continued force for good

[tiktok]

scottishmummy - I would sum up my position as yes, NCT gets it wrong sometimes; people can have a bad experience that leaves them in bits sometimes, at other times just very cross; sometimes, people forget stuff (pedagogical conundrum); all these points should be addressed; but if things are changed 'systemically' as you ask, you risk reducing the satisfaction over 90 per cent of people say they have.

[Fabsmum]

"as unpleasant as it is to read,you need to read and accept someone else lived experience"

What - if someone tells me that they wished I'd covered something in the class which I knew I had, I should accept I didn't cover it because they didn't remember it?

People have poor recall of what they do in classes - that is all. It's absolutely NOT disrespectful to flag this point up here in response to all the comments here about things that are and aren't covered in NCT classes.

FWIW - I also question the positive feedback I get. I know that much of the positive feedback about courses is the result of people liking me as a person and wanting to be kind.

And no, I'm not objective. Neither is any midwife or antenatal teacher or doctor I know. But I try to give balanced and up to date information, and be aware of how my personal experiences and beliefs might impact on the way I teach. Which is more than can be said for a lot of people working with parents.

Oh, and I have no idea about what you mean when you say I'm not accepting people's accounts of their births. How so? The accounts 'I don't like' are the ones where mums tell me they had terrible care or where someone had a horrible experience and is clearly still gutted about it. I'm a human being and I care about my clients. I don't comment on what's happened to them, I just listen and suggest ways of feeding back their thoughts to the unit if they want to do that at any point. How is this disrespectful?

[scottishmummy]

fab,im saying you seem to be minimizing and denying accounts on this thread
i accept your account of nct with no buts,you need to afford other women the same
your impartiality is impeding your responses. having read others accounts what do you think nct needs to do

[basildonbond]

scottishmummy it is incredibly difficult to have a sensible debate with someone who obviously isn't taking in what other people say (especially if it doesn't fit with your reading of the situation). Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make it the 'truth'...

[bows out of thread]

[scottishmummy]

you can get exasperated as you wish, I'm not clear what your point is either no definitive nct experience,as you can see it ranges from plaudits to condemnation
but what is case,is each account is someone recollection.that's the interesting bit

[PoppyAmex]

"People have poor recall of what they do in classes - that is all."

This is so patronising. Yes, I'm sure that accounts for all the individual experiences of women that spoke out on this matter.

As I mentioned upthread, my classes (10 months ago) were dismal; we had to specifically request that the teacher addressed interventions like ventouse, forceps and c-section.

Even then it was glazed over in less than 10 minutes in favour of even more bloody "ice-breaking, getting to know you" exercises (we were in week 3 by this point!)

The breastfeeding class in particular was a mine of misinformation and a plethora of medically incorrect statements.

I'm sure there are very positive experiences - mine was of a glorified dating agency for pregnant couples.

[scottishmummy]

yes it is patrionising and dismissive

[tiktok]

What were the misinformed and medically incorrect statements about bf, Poppy?

scottish, I think it is the case that there are instances of poor recall of the content of classes....I have experienced it myself, both as a student and as an educator. I don't think it's patronising or dismissive - it's what happens to human beings in a teaching/learning/situation. I have tried to overcome this (see previous posts) but I'd love to have a foolproof way of doing it. I really want my bf sessions to be the best they possibly can be, and for people to remember what they need and want to know, and to feel prepared, confident and supported. I only get this right some of the time, I know.

Sample dialogue between me and a postnatal mother calling:

me: do you remember we talked a bit about how it's normal for babies to feed at irregular times and to be unpredictable?
Mother: um....you mean when you said to feed every three hours?

(I really, really didn't......but she thinks I did. It's happened on mumsnet - people say I have said something and I haven't. A couple of times I have had to link to the post where I'm supposed to have said something I didn't!).

[NigellaTufnel]

In case no one up thread has done it...

this nails it hillariouly

[Willabywallaby]

Thanks for giving me a laugh at 7 in the morning! Love him, but our teacher wasn't that touchy feely... unless I've forgotten

[Abitwobblynow]

'Don't let the doctors near you' - but when I reported that I got told I was libellous!

Okaaaay...

[NigellaTufnel]

I feel a little sorry for the 14 year old boys in the video forced tolearn about the NCT.

[Jux]

Very funny Nigella, Dara's a treasure.

I must say that my experience with NCT was absolutely nothing like that.

[ICBINEG]

Oh interesting. So even though the posters on here talking about frequent provable instances of women misremembering what they have been told in class, it is still considered patronising to point this out as a possible reason for the varied response to the classes?

Pregnant women get bombarded with crap from all sides from some very unreliable sources (Dms, MILs, grandparents, well meaning but confused friends etc.) it isn't surprising that they sometimes muddle who said what and whether they should have bothered listening in the first place.

Also I love Dara to bits but the medical guidelines do rather imply that a tear is preferable to a cut. Routine cuts were phased out yonks ago....and are now only recommended in cases of distress. To compare it to surgery is a bit ridiculous tbh.

[TinkerTills]

ICBINEG - its one thing to point out that women are subject to recall bias but quite another when people are posting that they specifically asked for a topic to be covered in their session (in my case we asked for c-sections) and for it to be brushed under the carpet.

I wholly support de-medicalised births wherever possible. However, the majority of women attending NCT WILL have an intervention and it is irresponsible of the biggest (?) provider of private ante-natal education to deliver that education in such a patchy way (by which i mean that some educators cover c-sections, drugs etc and others don't).

[PoppyAmex]

"its one thing to point out that women are subject to recall bias but quite another when people are posting that they specifically asked for a topic to be covered in their session (in my case we asked for c-sections) and for it to be brushed under the carpet."

I totally agree. And to categorise every single account in this fashion is disingenuous at best.

"Pregnant women get bombarded with crap from all sides from some very unreliable sources (...) it isn't surprising that they sometimes muddle who said what and whether they should have bothered listening in the first place."

Funnily enough, I managed to secure two degrees, a Master degree and a doctorate despite this apparent inability to recall basic information (and its source).

I also took extensive notes from my NCT classes, including when the Breastfeeding counsellor categorically stated that there's "no medical condition that would prevent successful breastfeeding, just bad mindsets and lack of support".

It's so disappointing that NCT representatives/teachers/supporters are refusing to acknowledge these experiences or choose to undermine them.

I actually thought I had been unlucky with my particular class, but because of all these reactions from people connected to the organisation, I now openly question their credibility and their ethos as an organisation.

[tiktok]

I don't think 'every single account' of people's experiences has been blamed on recall errors - not by me or anyone.

This is a part of what happens, and it does not matter how many degrees someone has , they can still make errors of this kind.

It's nothing to do with being academic or intelligent, it's to do with being human :) It's happened to me, and it's been done by me as well (in classes and courses where I have been sure X or Y happened, or didn't happen and I was wrong).

I too am positively bristling with brainpower and umpteen letters before and after my name, but it still happens. Can't help it. I'm mere flesh and blood :)

Is that the mistatement from the bfc you referred to, Poppy? It's definitely wrong - what happened when/if you challenged it or complained about it? The bfc concerned would be contacted, and her story would be listened to, and she would be corrected/sent for retraining/put in touch with her supervisor. It's a bizarre thing to say, and not what is taught in training at all.

Was it just that or was there other stuff to make a mine and a plethora?