Kirstie Allsopp and the NCT - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Last week, journalist and MN blogger Linda Geddes accidentally ignited a heated debate when she appeared on the Today programme discussing NCT classes with a representative from the organisation. Fellow MN blogger Kirstie Allsopp - who's been critical of the NCT before - was listening in, and fired off this tweet:

"Turn to BBC Radio 4 for talk of a book about all the absurd myths surrounding pregnancy & birth. More NCT b** as usual though. Lots of people have good NCT experiences, but many don't. This is a very politicised, dogmatic and in my experience, scary organisation."

As she's done previously, Kirstie argues that the NCT is so focused on natural birth that they are letting down women who don't want, or aren't able, to have one by failing to prepare them - with the result that mothers who have Caesareans (for e.g) can feel stigmatized. Here's her blog post - fellow MN bloggers In a Different Voice and When The Baby Sleeps have also posted on the subject.

What do you think - do you agree with Kirstie, and if not, why? Tell us if you blog about this - and if you don't have a blog (why not? ) let us know what you think here on the thread.

the classes are the organization,and how majority of folk encounter nct
frankly the brand is tarnished and IMO nct has many negative connotations
this is what allsopp has touched upon,with many agreeing with her sentiments

Oh well, this will all be worth it if NCT pay attention and listen.

Elastamum my midwife friend was also quietly horrified at the message NCT pushed. (Admittedly this was in the 90s and I am sure they have changed).

Big advantage to NCT: 1. I met some of my best mates there. 2. It is a huge network opportunity if you are in a new area. Nothing is worse than being isolated post birth when 8 out of 10 people have PND. 3. I really enjoyed giving something back in postnatal support volunteering.

Because I had been so shaken by my own birth (but it wasn't the ra ra thing to say it is all supposed to be FANTASTIC) it was nice to reassure people that they were doing FINE if they were still in their pyjamas at 4 o clock, to not dress up but come along in their trackies (and if they were still in their pyjamas that was fine too - but nobody did!), that if they felt depressed bewildered and lost that was normal and not a sign of failure, that they were NOT fat and useless, that the industrial 24 hour clock (9 -5) was irrelevant and that they were not lazy to sleep when baby slept - because sure as eggs they would be up at 2 and beyond.

My group grew and grew and people from other 'districts' came. Doing some good and giving something back was very rewarding, to see these shell-shocked new mothers getting their confidence and coming out of themselves, just because they were given a safe predictable space.

Women are so hard on themselves!

scottishmummy I think the classes are just part of what they do and in my experience were worth the money. I think as a whole they do good and shouldn't be slated, but that's just my opinion.

I have to say, I agree with Kirstie.

I'm in Surrey. The local NCT is elitist and middle class. They are regarded as the junior branch of the Women's Institute.

I live on a council estate: they leave the likes of me safely alone :) I heard nothing from them when any of my children were born. Loads of meet ups and coffee mornings, I understand - if I'd been living in the right areas of town.
Especially after my first, I was desperate for help and advice. I tried to find their classes but couldn't even find information about their nursing bras - nothing! It was apparently not an organisation that operated in my area.

most people encounter nct via classes,it's their majority activity and business
yes they should be slated if that's how folk feel.also praised if getting it right
but clearly something is amiss,as any nct thread will attest.they need to address perceived shortcomings

I haven't got time to read the whole thread but I found the NCT a godsend. When I had dc1 I went to nhs classes which were very broad, didnt go into much detail....told me mostly what I already knew and overall felt rushed.

I went through hell with ds. tore badly and had very little support afterwards and the recovery period took months which was how I came across mn.

with my second pg I joined the NCT. The teacher was a bit airy fairy but the breathing techniques we were taught were brilliant and she was very nice and unjudgemental. I felt totally out of control with dc1 so being in control of my pain the second time round was magnificent. The other mums in my group all wanted to be "friends" and I didnt fit in to this dynamic. I was most definatly the odd one out which I didnt like. Over time after the babies had been born this became clear and whilst they continue to meet with the babies, I am no longer invited. Thats the only bit of the NCT I dont like.
My teacher went through everything with us including medication and pain relief and made it clear that there was no shame in getting all the drugs you could.... I think her focus was on the mum being in control during the birth and pain relief options were part of that.

Mrs mcEnroe - I didn't say you were lying but there was obviously some misunderstanding somewhere along the line

Men cannot become NCT teachers as they can't get a licence to practise and therefore wouldn't be covered by the NCT's insurance. If this man's wife was a licensed teacher she would have been breaching the terms of her licence if she let someone else run the classes. Licensed NCT teachers are not allowed to tell parents they would not be welcome at classes if they planned to bottle feed as all NCT services have to be open to all parents - its part of their mission statement. I hope you followed up on your complaint as that couple should have nothing to do with the NCT

Scottushmummy I'm not dismissing other people's experiences - there are good, bad and indifferent NCT teachers just as in any other walk of life - what bugs me is when people slate the organisation without ANY personal experience of it themselves (like Kirstie A does). That then feeds into a general negative image which has little to do with the majority of services the NCT provides. Those of you who say - without having gone to classes - that they KNOW the NCT is anti pain relief/CS/ bottle feeding etc please show me evidence from the NCT's publications that supports that view

Yes there are some NCT volunteers who have questionable views about things but they are not representative of the NCT as a whole and as volunteers the NCT has little control over what they say

For those of you complaining that the NCT doesn't offer any services in your area why don't you offer to start something up yourself? The majority of support services other than classes are run by volunteers on a shoestring - and it simply isn't reasonable to ask unpaid mothers with young children to travel miles out of their own area to provide a service - and if they did there'd no doubt be a chorus of complaints about middle class do-gooders foisting themselves on areas where they weren't wanted

The NCT is not perfect by any means and I have major gripes about the way it's currently being run but much of the criticism on this thread is unfounded and unfair

no how dare you say people recalled experience is unfair,or unfounded
you clearly have no objectivity and will defend nct,irrespective of other accounts
that denial and head in sand it denies the accounts given.it doesn't help

My level of discomfort is heightened by the thought that, for those who have attended classes or had contact with NCT representatives which were unsatisfactory for them, that's a terrible shame for them and I can understand their negative feelings. I'm certainly not saying it doesn't or didn't happen. People are people after all and perhaps quality control in teaching was different in the past. I don't know.

But I also feel a level of discomfort in the level of criticism being leveled at this charity. The NCT supports all parents whatever choices they want to make. However, the benefits of physiological birth are clear from the research so these will probably be raised in classes. That doesn't mean that other choices or methods of giving birth are wrong but it does mean that it would be wrong not to discuss how to support physiological birth or to say that it is feasible.

Or, when the NCT classes raise the positive and negative aspects of, for example, pain relief, it is with the intention of supporting individual parents' informed choice, not forcing people into routes that they do not want. Sometimes, seeing the whole picture can by itself be challenging and difficult to accept.

Because no-one can force anyone to make any choice. Why would they want to?

Come along to classes, try it out, set your own agenda, question things, explore some options, reject some and use some others, know your options for labour and birth so that you are prepared with knowledge and some idea of your preferences but also what you might use if labour doesn't progress quite how you expected it to.

Alternatively, don't come if you don't fancy it, that's fine too. Or use the postnatal support groups or the breastfeeding support line or the meets in houses or village halls or Nearly New Sales or friends group or helping with a campaign or being a member for a year or volunteering or none of these.

Plus, whether you use these or not, the charity continues to aim to support parents in all forms with all the aspects of the transition to parenthood. That seems like a force for good, even if I don't need all the aspects of it or agree with every last thing any one representative says on a given occasion.

come along to the classes.would that be the pricey classes?
hardly accessible to a cross section of society.read thread some mums found cost prohibitive
nct needs to regroup, think,think again.fix the broken brand.build on good work done

I've read the whole thread.

Discounts are available link here It is also possible to pay in installments. I did 8 years ago.

There are also shorter and longer course formats which will alter the price.

Plus, no-one is forced to attend! Making a decision to attend or to go along to perhaps an NHS class or both or neither is also part of preparing to become a parent.

I don't think it is a broken brand. I think this recent furore is raising some very mixed and personally-held experiences for people which are all relevant and may well be useful for the charity's management to take into account but they should not be confused with the overall work, historical and current, of the NCT to support all parents.

I loved my nct classes and still catch up with the group.

we started out by choosing topics to cover. the main concern was pain relief with a day on c-section....

although we did a day with a new born dry run, I would have appreciated more post natal info.

There's an article in the Guardian here:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/11/caesareans-natural-birth-kirstie-allsopp

I think first time mums have no real idea as to what labour is like and hope theirs will go well. So they don't want to dwell on forceps or c sections. My hospital mentioned them in passing but we all turned away when the forceps were shown, too scary! I feel no stigma from anyone about my ventouse delivery first time or manual removal of placenta second time. You do what's necessary for mum and baby to be safe. C sections should be the same. They are performed to save lives.

I would agree with KA. I signed up to NCT classes with the intention of meeting other Mums as DH and I didn't know anyone with children at the time. Most of the useful/practical information could be gleaned from books and the internet. While I liked our instructor on a personal level, she did very much toe the party line in terms of using phrases like "having an epidural is likely to lead to a cascade of medical intervention" etc etc. the most ridiculous statement was that "studies have proven the use of pethidine by Mothers in labour will lead to a higher risk of their children becoming heroin addicts" I mean really!! Really!!

I do think that they need to give a more balanced view of the pain relief options available. We are living in the 21st Century - if I want to contact my Mum i will phone her or email her, I don't send a carrier pigeon or send smoke signals - the world has moved on as has medical science and Mothers shouldn't be made to feel they have failed if they have had to undergo a procedure which has resulted in the safe delivery of their baby. Otherwise they and their baby would have died.

I have commented (circa no.200) in the Guardian article posted by VisualiseAHorse (above), and also at the end of Linda Geddes' blog on this whole subject (since it was her radio interview that kicked the whole debate off):
Does the NCT tell women the truth about birth?

Few bits of info:

• classes are not the main way people are in touch with NCT - far from it. This is only part of NCT's work, though of course an important one. But in terms of contacts, breastfeeding counsellors talk to many more women; many more women have postnatal support of various kinds than go to classes;
• NCT does a massive amount of outreach work - in prisons, women's refuges, specific groups (eg teenage mothers), children's centres. It may not always be obviously 'badged' as NCT, but it is NCT personnel facilitating it. NCT is commissioned to run courses/groups by other agencies - no charge to the mothers
• someone complained they 'never heard from NCT' when they were pregnant. NCT is not like your local council, knocking on your door. If you think your area would benefit from having a NCT branch, you can be supported to start one - it's all on the website
• cost is off putting - but classes don't make a profit. They have to cover their costs, that's all. You can get discount if you cannot pay the full fee

I could go on - lots of misinfo on this thread.

no misinfo on thread,things certain folk find hard so.they deny or minimise
is it really 1st time heard,or so intolerable?don't deny someone else lived experience
instead of vociferously denying,read,think about mums lived experience those accounts speak volumes

In my area the NCT was disbanded I think, well the sales stopped. The teacher we had was running loads of classes and working as a midwife (she also had 4 children and personal experience of PND which made her course give all aspects of birth and early motherhood). A lot of people are needed to run it at local level and I for one don't have that time. I agree that organisations need to move with the times and it does need to take on board the poor experience many have had from the classes.

But it doesn't as a whole deserve the slating it receives.

Maybe if the teachers are so out of touch with the mothers at their classes the organisation needs to be informed and those teachers retrained or booted out. But as I said in this area (very middle class and affluent) it struggles to keep going.

My NCT classes (2006, so things may have moved on) were totally focused on natural birth to the exclusion of C-sections. I felt really sorry for the woman in my class whose baby was breach and was advised to have a section because nothing we discussed really related to the birth experience she had. The content wasn't anything I hadn't already read in books. The positive thing about it was both DH and I felt able to ask questions of the medical professionals so that we were happy with what was going on.

Post-natal I was desperate for help BF and found very little support from the NCT. The BF counsellor wasn't available to help (fair enough, it was a weekend and she was a volunteer) but offered no alternatives; when I did get to see her, by which time I was an emotional, guilt-ridden wreck, the only advice she offered was, " Well, people in medieval times managed this". No they didn't, if they had severe problems their babies died or were fed by someone else. Second time round I reached for the NHS and found a wonderful counsellor who sorted us out; I have to admit this was more by luck than judgement as first time experience of NHS counsellor wasn't great either (her clinic was simply swamped so she couldn't really help much).

The Bumps and Babes group was a great meeting point for my NCT group but we would have managed it somewhere else had that not been available. There wasn't much crossover between the various NCT groups attending so no extension of contacts beyond my own group. That's obviously not the NCTs fault, just an observation that the social side isn't anything remarkable.

In short, my experience of the NCT is that they help create the idea that giving birth and BF are easy and that you are a failure if you can't. They may do marvellous work elsewhere and I happily sell stuff through their Nearly New sales, but they could and should be more open to the realities of giving birth and early days with a newborn in the 21st century. And they should definitely stop the failure to give birth naturally/to BF = failure. Support to achieve it, yes. But support those who can't/don't as well.

Half of the women in my class had a section. One planned 3 emergency. We had a meet up after they were all born at the teachers house (not sure if they all do that) and I don't remember anyone being made to feel they 'hadn't done it properly'.

There was a national NCT helpline for breast feeding I called, and a councillor came to one of her classe and we also had her number.

My NCT teacher stressed very strongly that the N does not stand for natural. She clearly explained all the options for pain relief and what might happen in an emergency.

I avoided NCT because I was told that once they get their claws into you they never let go i.e expect you to run second hand clothes sales etc even when your kids are no longer babies. No idea if it's strue, but it warned me off. We had a great NHS ante natal clas in my area, which explanied all possibilities and options and didnt push any particular type of birth. They did their best to promote BF pre birth, but were not involved once the baby was born.

NCT wouldn't run if it wasn't for volunteers, which is why it asks people to do things. TBH I always said no as I was either working FT or my place was too small to host their coffee mornings. It was never a problem.

We prepared for CS by having little Playmobil figures that we had to lay out to resemble who would be in the room for a CS. Different people had different ideas - some underestimated how many would be in the room, others thought the father would have to be outside, and so on. The teacher places the correct numbers of people in the correct way so we understood the scale of it all. We also talked about aftercare, scars, what level of basic nursing to insist on and so on.