AMA My marriage started as an affair.

[LavenderRoseBush]

I’ve been contemplating this post for a while and been hesitant for obvious reasons. But I’ve seen a few posts recently making the assumption that people who have affairs are somehow a breed apart, rather than a significant proportion of the population. So here goes!

To pre-empt the most obvious questions: we were both married, and neither of us had kids.

"Why did you think anyone would want to ask you questions?" is a question that is breaking my brain

Also response to @Themoonisntaballoon

I’ve been thinking about this a lot.

I’m always interested in AMA threads - I think there’s something fascinating about inviting any question and trying to answer it honestly and in full. I’m introspective (some might, and on this thread have, call it self-absorbed…). When I wasn’t having a series of breakdowns I enjoyed therapy and did it for a long time even after DH and I got together. I’ve fancied doing an AMA thread for a while.

But whilst I love living my life, there’s nothing very interesting for outsiders about it. Who wants AMA for “mum of small kids, busy job, happy marriage, functional extended family, plenty of friends, normal house in normal part of the country”. Having an affair, and that’s affair turning into a happy marriage and family, is by far the most unusual thing that’s ever happened to me. And I knew people would respond. I think because we weren’t caught, I’ve always been curious how people would react if they had all the facts. Tbf, nothing about the responses has shocked me, although I was surprised how many people have written about their own marriages after affairs - that’s been nice to read. People tend not to tell these stories in life or on other posts, for obvious reasons.

In terms of “pearls of wisdom” I’ll refer back to my OP about people thinking cheaters are somehow different, and the many posts I see on mumsnet which seem to assume that you could tell who would and wouldn’t cheat. My friends think of me as someone who really has their shit together (early divorce notwithstanding!) and I know they think of me as a sensible, calm, compassionate friend they can turn to in a crisis. I have a very responsible job with a lot of people depending on me. There is no way in hell most of these people would ever think I behaved the way I did. So I find the certainty you see about affairs on mumsnet and IRL really quite irritating, and wanted to challenge it.

Also, and this explains the when, if not the why, I have a contact napping Velcro baby, I just finished binging my last box set on my phone and I’m very bored naptrapped for hours a day, spending far too much time on mumsnet. So I was basically up for a challenge. I made a commitment to myself that I would try to answer every question, and not get offended even - and especially - when people were actively trying to offend me. I do have a bit of a trolling streak - fully acknowledge this is not a great aspect to my personality - that quite enjoys refusing to get riled up and even gently goading people who keep coming back for more (😂).

I discussed this in one of my first answers, I think it’s on page 1 😊
Side note - not sure if it’s a typo but I really enjoy the image of “the chips hitting the fan” 😂

Nope, you haven’t answered it. Doesn’t matter.

@LavenderRoseBush "In terms of “pearls of wisdom” I’ll refer back to my OP about people thinking cheaters are somehow different, and the many posts I see on mumsnet which seem to assume that you could tell who would and wouldn’t cheat."

" I’ll refer back to my OP about people thinking cheaters are somehow different,"
They are.
They are selfish, totally lacking in empathy, have entitlement issues and are conflict avoidant.
Many have narcissistic tendencies.ie exhibit extreme selfishness, a need for flattery and attention, and an inability to consider the needs and feelings of others.

"and the many posts I see on mumsnet which seem to assume that you could tell who would and wouldn’t cheat."
You can't tell because no-one can know what goes on inside other people's head.

It's not just the cheating, it's the bare face lies that go with it. Why ruin a good pair though? Chuck the cheaters together, let them.ruin eachother. I have no doubt karma will get one of you. You can't go around destroying people's lives and deciving without any comeback. On Mumsnet, feeling like a winner 😂 I look forward to your next one... Husband cheated on me and I'm devastated 😂

I suppose most people wouldn’t think it much of a surprise or have much sympathy for either of you if one of you just skipped off again if ‘you found something better’

This.. I think most of us like to think that marriage is about more than going off with someone who happen to click with when things are going through a rough patch. If a rough patch leads to the end of a marriage in itself that’s one thing but this is totally different. Who knows if the relationship would of lasted otherwise, although probably not if one partner has that mindset

OP, thanks for your frankness and considerable forbearance. Can I ask why most of your ‘affair dates’ were in public? I’m not going to go back through the thread to try to find your post, but I think you mentioned having a standing date at a local pub quiz — why? As in, why not meet in private so you could have sex? Too logistically difficult? I suppose what I’m saying is that it sounds surprisingly non-sex-based as affairs go?

It's bizarre to think that selfishness is exclusively a characteristic of those who cheat. (The reasoning given by a pp for cheaters being 'different'). Everyone on MN is selfish to some extent.

Same with wanting to avoid conflict.

This doesn't make "cheaters" a separate type of person from the general population.

I think OP's thread is useful if people genuinely go round thinking there are separate types of people - those who are conflict-avoidant, selfish and who all cheat, and those who aren't and don't, with no crossover because "cheaters are different from non-cheaters". It's an odd view of the world, to be sure.

Well I have another question... given how extremely painful and upsetting you must have known many people would find this, couldn't you have found a different subject to goad and troll about?

I'm going by what the psychological research says, and I've found it pans out due to speaking to various counsellors and psychologists I know.

If you don't want to accept this, then that's your choice.

@ThatCyanCat "Well I have another question... given how extremely painful and upsetting you must have known many people would find this, couldn't you have found a different subject to goad and troll about?"

That question is answered on my post at 4.40.am today.

Cheaters are not capable of having much empathy for others, and this particular cheater shows that quite clearly.

While I completely agree you can never know what’s going on in someone’s head, you’ve painted a very black and white picture that simply doesn’t describe me, my husband or the few people I know well who have cheated. I also don’t think it describes the 20%+ of the population who - on a very conservative estimate - have cheated at some point. I think pretty much everyone can behave in selfish, entitled and unkind ways given a particular set of circumstances. A lot of people are conflict avoidant (not me though 😂). Perhaps you’ve never had a dear friend or family member who cheated and been forced to reassess your views, or perhaps, knowing how you would respond, it’s simply that no one would tell you.

But it actually makes less sense to me than the cheating itself. Cheating is very wrong, obviously, but I can understand that if you're unhappy, you might do something wrong if it'll stop you feeling unhappy. And I can understand sexual temptation. It's wrong but it's not usually malicious. Don't they always say they never meant to hurt anyone?

But then, after first hand experience of this, OP now starts an AMA and admits she enjoys upsetting people over it and watching them try to hit back; trolling and goading were her words (and given the devastation involved in this issue I have no idea how she thinks she can do it "gently"). That makes absolutely no sense. If you like winding people up, couldn't you do it over something less genuinely distressing? This is MN, I've seen people lose their minds over pizza cutters.

This now just sounds... spiteful.

It was mostly because we were in our 20s and couldn’t afford hotels very often 😂 also for a team of two we did really well in pub quizzes, so that was just good fun.

I think it was more relationship-y than a lot of affairs, which may be why it survived the affair itself and became a functional, non-dramatic marriage. A good chunk of the angst during the affair was it was so obvious what a great couple we could have been. When we officially got together, our friends much much universally responded with - oh yeah that makes sense, you’re perfect for each other. Sex did play an important part though, including talking very freely about desires, writing long erotic stories (I feel more awkward admitting that than I think anything else on this thread!? So cringe! ) planning the next time we could spend a night together etc.

I obviously agree, but I don’t know why I thought a mumsnet thread would challenge anyone’s thinking rather than simply entrenching their views - I must have forgotten it was the internet 🤣

If you want to focus entirely on that aspect (which genuinely wasn’t my reason for posting, just explains why I don’t mind the more vicious responses) then it wouldn’t be an effective troll if it didn’t upset people. No one is forced to engage. I do think trolling involves a level of insincerity though. I’ve tried to be completely open throughout.

The erotic stories definitely have more cringe potential than an affair. (Unless you are Anais Nin, obviously!) Who knew that pub quizzes (DH and I were also very good on the local scene when we were students, when we relied on the prizes for drinking money!) could be a place or erotic potential? Presumably other people knew about the pub quizzes, though? It wasn't that you were sneaking off to a distant area?

I don't think I'd grasped you were only in your twenties. Did you marry very young, and was that a factor in why the marriage failed?

Back in the day, kid, the skill was supposed to be in getting people worked up over shit that didn't actually matter, so no actual harm done. This is MN, people go loco over Christmas Eve boxes and toilet brushes... it wouldn't be difficult at all. The idea was not "go for something actually traumatising and heartbreaking that can destroy lives"; I'm not saying nobody ever did it, but they were generally considered to be low effort, low skill dicks rather than talented wind up artists. Of course you're going to upset people when you run roughshod over the thing that broke up their marriage and family, and of course you won't be upset yourself if it all worked out for you. What's to be proud of?

“It's bizarre to think that selfishness is exclusively a characteristic of those who cheat. (The reasoning given by a pp for cheaters being 'different'). Everyone on MN is selfish to some extent.”

I don’t think anyone is suggesting selfishness is exclusively a characteristic of cheaters. Of course we’re all selfish. I’ve already been selfish this morning by not wanting to play with my kids cause I can’t really be bothered. But it would be selfish in a totally different way to neglect my kids daily and never play with them.

We’re all selfish in our relationships or marriages to one degree or another. But it’s selfish in a totally different way to cheat on your spouse. And to never have the balls to tell them the truth about what happened…that’s just another level again.

I really think that if the OP were out to troll, she wouldn't have invented an affair with a pair of 20somethings meeting to be an illicit pub team because they couldn't afford a hotel room.

OP has already admitted "trolling" so what is your point ?

Definitely not Anais Nin! Oh goodness, I bet they would be awful to read now 😅 I might have to dig them out.

No one knew about the pub quizzes (at least not that they were a regular thing, I forget the details now). I think they started because we met at a mutually convenient pub one evening and there happened to be a quiz on, we enjoyed it and kept going back. Tbf, I think doing well at a shared challenge has plenty of erotic potential - it clearly worked for you and your DH!

We both married in our mid-20s, so not super young, but we had been with our spouses since teens - him school, me early uni. I think the problem wasn’t so much about the age we got married as the dysfunctional relationship patterns that had been allowed to set in because we ignored issues in the early days, that we would not have ignored as older adults with more life and relationship experience. For me the red flags were waving high and I should never have married my ex. For him it was much more low-key, but in some ways much more dysfunctional, issues both in the marriage and in his own head that took a lot of unpicking - and still affect him. I think without therapy he could have got married to anyone at any age and created the same problematic dynamic in that relationship.

I wrote quite a long post about why I decided to write the AMA and you have homed in on the least significant aspect - which wasn’t even part of why I posted, just why I can manage responses like yours. If you don’t want to engage, stop.

Except that's not what she said. She said she had a 'trolling streak' that meant she quite enjoyed not getting riled up at people's responses, not that she's posting deliberately provocative things, true or not.