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AMA
Original poster

I'm a Sleep Scientist

129 replies

Goodnightythen · 16/09/2023 21:12

I specialised in neurodevelopmental conditions and the importance of sleep in our children's brain development. I worked a lot with children with Autism as well as other frontal lobe related conditions such as ADHD, FASD, ED, ODD, PD, etc.
I don't do much work in sleep labs anymore but AMA!

OP posts:
Original poster
Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 12:15

CalmaLlamaDown · 16/09/2023 21:43

My 16 year old son says he dreams in words and not pictures. Is that something you’ve heard of?

He doesn’t feel well-rested in the morning as his brain will not switch off.

Is there anything we can do? He doesn’t have excess screen time and doesn’t play video games at all.

Any advice please?

Words he can hear out loud? Or words that appear visually before him?
If former - can happen in the early stages of sleep and aren't technically dreams, which explains him not feeling rested as he might not be getting quality sleep. The brain not switching off - I would say this is the more important thing to address through therapy, meditation, mindfulness etc. Once address sleep problems should subside.

OP posts:
Original poster
Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 14:50

DyslexicPoster · 16/09/2023 21:58

Oh!

My 19 year old has had insomnia for about a decade. How could I get him a proper sleep study where is actually somewhere we're people can watch him sleep? He is borderline ADOS but definitely ASD imo.

Find something like this in your local hospital: https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/our-services/find-service/medical-specialties-1/sleep-services-uclh

Sleep services at UCLH : University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

UCLH runs a collaborative service incorporating physicians in UCH, the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery and the Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine.

https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/our-services/find-service/medical-specialties-1/sleep-services-uclh

OP posts:
Original poster
Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 15:00

NeverDropYourMooncup · 16/09/2023 21:59

How do you proceed when deliberate, planned approaches like this just result in you going to work on zero sleep/awake for 34 hours/a brief absence of total awareness for 20 minutes on the bus home on day 2 followed by another sleepless night/a early night of 5.48am/back to 4.40am being lucky/etc? But when you do actually fall asleep by some miracle because you've managed to sit in the dark since 4pm and no bugger has switched a single light on because that'll instantly snap you wide awake for another 6-8 hours, you sleep like the Dead for no more than 1-3 sleep cycles with an initial light sleep phase of about 90 seconds?

I could write a book on sleep hygiene. None of it bloody works. And neither have sleeping tablets, tranquilisers or sodding antidepressants, which incidentally kept me awake for five nights in a row - the GP said 'Oh that's not supposed to happen' and that was it.

Show quote history

The problem here is you sound very upset and angry about your lack of sleep but diving into its neuromechanics wont help. A planned approach like this won't help either because your sleep sounds way too disrupted for something like this to work. Like I have said to a few PPs here, it is the most important thing to address your own mental health first and come to a place of calm, and better sleep will be a secondary outcome. You mention no-one being allowed to switch the light on and antidepressants - it sounds like you have a lot on - and often when that is the case it's not to do with the mechanics of sleep. Sleep hygiene cannot work if you don't address the underlying issues.

OP posts:
bryceQ · 19/09/2023 15:04

My son is autistic, he takes melatonin before bed at 8/30pm (3mg), prob 4 nights out of 7 he wakes at 12/1 and tries to get back to sleep... He can't, then his energy goes up and up and he ends up unregulated slapping the walls and wide awake. This goes on till 6am/7am

Any advice? It's really tough. He is nearly 5 years old

Original poster
Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 15:12

nightm8re · 16/09/2023 22:03

What are your thoughts on sleep training babies/young children? In terms of a) ethics b) effectiveness c) long term outcomes?

Thank you

I haven't used 'extinction method' on my DD but we follow a loose training schedule both during the day and at night.

a) Each to their own. I have colleagues who put their babies in their own room at 3 weeks and let them cry it out. I have colleagues who sleep trained their children as babies but as toddlers sleep in the bed with them. I know a midwife who co-slept with her children until they were four.
b) very effective especially if you are working and you need everyone to be on the same sleep schedule.
c) most kids are fine but mine is a special delicate flower and I couldn't do it 😂
As I said to a previous poster I probably wont be so precious over the second.

OP posts:
trampoline123 · 19/09/2023 15:19

My mum sleep screams and talks in her sleep but in a different voice, it's so freaky!

What's that about?

Sofarlatedo · 19/09/2023 16:47

Is it true that the “best” quality sleep happens between 8pm and midnight? A paediatrician recently told me this - my DD (ASD/ADHD - long standing sleep issues) takes melatonin but still doesn’t go to sleep until 11.30, but then is more likely to stay asleep for longer (with a couple of wake ups) He was of the opinion she would be better sleeping earlier but waking earlier - but this results in 3am starts for the day which is not good for the rest of the family (needs constant supervision!) I am carrying on with what we are doing as it works best for us but wondered if there was scientific evidence for this?

Sofarlatedo · 19/09/2023 16:49

@bryceQ that tough, we have the same issue. Our Paediatrician recommended splitting the melatonin dose - so 2mg at the beginning of the night and saving 1mg for the wake up. Didn’t work for us as DD wouldn’t take it in the middle of the night but just a suggestion in case it help.

ShadyPaws · 19/09/2023 16:54

Is split sleeping an issue? I have chronic conditions that make me really tired
After work I can't face staying awake so I nap then do my evening then go to bed
So tonight I will
Sleep 18.00 - 19.30
Awake - eat/shower/Tv etc
Sleep - 1am ish - 8am

Invisablepanic · 19/09/2023 17:17

What do you think about using melatonin for asd children who find it difficult to get to sleep? My 12yo is not afraid of the dark, fine being alone but just struggles to fall asleep. We've done all the usual things around sleep hygiene but he's still often tossing and turning at midnight.

He's fine once asleep, I worry more now he's just started secondary as he has to be up so much earlier than primary and its a huge transition for him so I'd feel happier if I thought he was better rested.

xyz111 · 19/09/2023 20:49

@Goodnightythen thank you for taking the time to reply 😊

Abelard40 · 21/09/2023 21:08

This thread is fascinating for me - I'm an educational psychologist researching younger adolescents' views about their sleep and it has been a really interesting journey.. would love to chat some time!

Rummikub · 21/09/2023 22:04

I work with young people and for lots their sleep is awful.

They carry around caffeinated drinks and many admit to staying up gaming all night. They can see and feel it affecting their day like and cannot find the motivation to change their behaviour.

Annaishere · 21/09/2023 22:09

@Rummikub its a constant battle with my teen. His cycle seems to be to stay up till the A.Ms and wake up at 11 or 12 midday. I don’t think it’s behavioural. I’ve tried him on melatonin but it’s hit and miss. I’m worried he needs to be on sleeping pills to get through his exam year

Rummikub · 21/09/2023 23:23

It’s difficult @Annaishere

Ive struggled with sleep all my life. Could never work out if it was going to bed late / staying up reading and then needing the lay in. Or whether I was overwhelmed in the day and needed a lot of down time.

I have reduced my caffeine drastically and give myself a long wind down. But still using my phone 🙄

Rummikub · 21/09/2023 23:26

When I’ve used sleeping tabs they made me feel spaced out next day. Not a nice sleep tbh.

There’s a sleep training app sleepio. Might be worth seeing if eligible. https://www.sleepio.com/sleepio/welcome/352#1/1

Onboarding Sleep Test - Sleepio

https://www.sleepio.com/sleepio/welcome/352#1/1

Dotcheck · 21/09/2023 23:28

Placemarking. Interesting thread!

Annaishere · 21/09/2023 23:46

@Rummikub same with me as well. I’m convinced it’s circadian rhythm disorder as I’m fine when I’m working evening and night jobs and can swap round my waking pattern. Since I was about 14 I’m just a night person

Rummikub · 22/09/2023 00:02

@Annaishere that makes sense. My sleep pattern is pretty flexible. And I can survive on v little sleep.
Apart from the year where I could only get an hour max every night. That almost killed me. Thyroid issues.

fuckssaaaaake · 22/09/2023 05:53

Will I ever sleep again?

fuckssaaaaake · 22/09/2023 06:01

When I take sleeping tablets (which is often) I know it's bad for me but I would never sleep otherwise. Is it like an artificial sleep that doesn't actually make you feel more rested? Because it's forced. Can't explain what I mean very well haha

Annaishere · 22/09/2023 06:38

Interesting re thyroid issue @Rummikub

NeverDropYourMooncup · 22/09/2023 07:07

Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 15:00

The problem here is you sound very upset and angry about your lack of sleep but diving into its neuromechanics wont help. A planned approach like this won't help either because your sleep sounds way too disrupted for something like this to work. Like I have said to a few PPs here, it is the most important thing to address your own mental health first and come to a place of calm, and better sleep will be a secondary outcome. You mention no-one being allowed to switch the light on and antidepressants - it sounds like you have a lot on - and often when that is the case it's not to do with the mechanics of sleep. Sleep hygiene cannot work if you don't address the underlying issues.

Show quote history

Mental health is fine. I just can't sleep - been like it since a baby.

Lambruschinetto · 23/09/2023 21:39

Why do I fall asleep in front of the telly but toss and turn once I go to bed?

Ididivfama · 11/10/2023 22:50

Goodnightythen · 19/09/2023 15:12

I haven't used 'extinction method' on my DD but we follow a loose training schedule both during the day and at night.

a) Each to their own. I have colleagues who put their babies in their own room at 3 weeks and let them cry it out. I have colleagues who sleep trained their children as babies but as toddlers sleep in the bed with them. I know a midwife who co-slept with her children until they were four.
b) very effective especially if you are working and you need everyone to be on the same sleep schedule.
c) most kids are fine but mine is a special delicate flower and I couldn't do it 😂
As I said to a previous poster I probably wont be so precious over the second.

Show quote history

I’m really surprised at this. Surely the research shows that letting a 3 week old cry it out is damaging? is it because in their eyes sleep is even more important than the other neurological damage?

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