I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@TheKrakening3

Had I been born decades later and had parents like you, I think my outcome would be different. As a gender non-conforming child, I would have loved to have had woke parents like you. I would have loved to have endlessly talked about gender identities. I would have loved to be supported and understood and validated. Going to counselling would have given legitimacy to my delusions and they would have continued well past their natural use-by date. Looking back at my childhood self, I believe affirmation and endless support to explore my gender issues would have resulted in the natural stop not happening. I would have gone on blockers, cross sex hormones and had surgery at 18.

Sorry the idea of me as woke is making me laugh, I think my kids would disagree with that Prior to discussions around being trans, as mentioned in an earlier post, I was much more binary and made it clear that I didn’t understand what it meant to feel male when you are biologically female.

The counselling in this instance, as also mentioned previously, is about challenge, curiosity and really unpacking his life experiences to understand what is going on. If after all that he still feels male then yes we will move forward and he will have my support, he has my support while this is going on of course but I won’t agree to any irreversible treatments until there is more clarity and certainty,

I’ve said to the psychologist already that my biggest is fear is making a decision or agreeing to something that he regrets later down the line. Because at 14 you will not be the same person as at 25. This is a massive responsibility and one that keeps me awake at night.

I don't have any questions, I just wanted to say that you sound like a wonderful mum, and your son is lucky to have you and your support ❤️ also I agree it is so hard to get access psychological help for children, even when it is as serious as suicide attempts.

On the being accepted when you come out as lesbian so that means homophobia can't be a factor: acceptance by peers is only half the story.

At that age, I knew intellectually what lesbian meant, but thanks to the surrounding culture the associations in my head were very male gaze-y. And I really don't want to be "that thing where two sets of breasts and vaginas perform for other people's dicks".

That association comes from being immersed in our culture. You don't just escape it because your mates think you're grand, y'know?

@Campervan69

Have you read the stories of the Detransitioners? I went to a meeting in Manchester and it was so upsetting.

This a million times over. Please, PLEASE, tread carefully OP.

(said with care)

@RAOK

Also, how have your other children responded to your son? Do you worry that he might regret his decision in the future and the impact it will have on your relationship as his parents? Do you miss your daughter and/or the life you might’ve envisioned for her?

The other two have been very accepting and adaptable, kids tend to be though in my experience in the same way that they accept the adjustments that have to be made because of the ASD.

Yes I worry he will regret his decision in the future and that he will turn around and say why did you let me do that and that in turn will impact on our relationship. I’ve always wanted a crystal ball so I could see the right path to take but the best I can do is make decisions based on what I know right now. We are doing our best to be cautious, curious and measured and I hope that will be enough.

In response to your last question about missing my daughter and the life I envisioned for her: I’m scared for him and his future and how he finds his place in the world as male, if he continues down this path. Will he be subject to hatred and abuse in particular. I don’t miss having a daughter as to me they are the same person and that hasn’t changed, the hardest bit was letting go of the name that he was given at birth because it had such a special meaning to me. But in the grand scheme of things that is fairly unimportant. I’m not sure what life I envisioned for him, in terms of careers I hope that he will still feel able to work towards the job that he wants and that he will be able to have relationships and so on as normal.

All the trans people I know are autistic. I'm autistic too but not diagnosed until adulthood. I grew up thinking being a boy was better than being a girl as they did all the fun stuff and I hated anything girly. It's very common for autistic girls to get on better with boys.

It wasn't until I met bisexual and lesbian women through playing football in my 20s that I was exposed to a way to be female that fitted the way I was. I realised I was same sex attracted and everything slotted into place. I feel so lucky that gender identity wasn't a thing when I was growing up. It would have set me off down a path undoubtedly.

I'm very concerned about autistic girls identifying as boys before they've had a chance to explore their sexuality as an adult. Especially if they go down a medical route which will cause irreversible changes.

Psychologists that I know have said that their teenage lesbian clients tell them that they get less abuse at school if they identify as boys.

Has your child been had the opportunity to meet people autistic, gender non conforming women who might be same sex attracted and don't identify as trans?

I hope that he will still feel able to work towards the job that he wants and that he will be able to have relationships and so on as normal.

I know you say your child is perfectly ok with the idea of infertility and loss of sexual function but this would be a huge factor in most relationships, so I’m guessing “normal”, whatever that you mean by that, may not be a possibility.

[quote Delphinium20]@Fraida
Thank you for posting. I have a godson who is trans and we fear his lack of sexual experience isn't allowing him to understand what he'll lose out on if he continues on hormones and surgery. You wrote the below on sex and I have a follow up question below:

Absolutely, we have discussed it already. He is very bright and reads a lot which is helpful, we are also a very open and transparent family so won’t be sugar coating anything!

Intellectual understanding of sexual experiences and ACTUAL sexual experiences are very different. No way did I understand true joy and satisfaction in sex until I was well into my early 20s. I don't think late blooming sexuality is unusual, especially for women. Do you worry your child will miss out on the vital human experience of sexual pleasure and sexual intimacy?[/quote]
Yes I think sexual awakening is generally later for women, I hope there is more talk now around sexuality and owning your sexual pleasure as a woman as opposed to when I was teen. I do remember growing up with the view that the mans sexual pleasure was paramount and above and beyond a woman’s. From what I can see the tide has turned/and is turning.

I would be devastated if any of my children never got to experience a healthy relationship and sexual pleasure/intimacy. So yes for this reason alone I would want them to thoroughly explore the pros and cons of any surgery in particular.

A poster mentioned not understanding identifying with your elbow: misunderstanding rooted in meanings of 'identity'. Consider it synonymous with 'consciously experienced self' and it'll make more sense.

I think that was me. Can you elaborate as I don't know what you mean? I really have no sense of sense in my body. I see it as a carrier really for 'me' which is my mind. It's not a great carrier and I wish I had a better (looking and functioning) body but I experience is like a beat up old car - better than nothing and says nothing about the owner. What do you mean by 'sense of self' in this embodied sense?

Have you read this piece by an detransitioner who is also ASD. It’s a long piece but I’ve quoted below something I think is really important, that transitioning can feel like it will be a solution to many problems.
destroyyourbinder.tumblr.com/post/620860243262488576/unriddling-the-sphinx-autism-the-magnetism-of/amp?__twitter_impression=true

“When I imagined myself as a man I didn’t imagine myself like most of the childhood boys I managed to ingratiate myself with, who lisped, repeated themselves, and tripped over their own shoes. I imagined myself as a musician who was absolutely magnetic, I imagined myself as a writer with a legacy, I imagined myself telling other guys they were stupid shits and they could fuck off. I imagined being able to hold onto a football without dropping it, being able to smoke weed without getting a migraine, being able to talk without squeaking or letting out a little drool.

I thought I would finally be a human being with no embarrassments and nothing that could get me bullied in the bathroom between class. I thought when I would say “no”, other people would listen. I would enter whatever mystical world it is that Ehrensaft names, made of messages and meanings, where every twist of word and piece of clothing said something, connected by a fine filament back to that Necronomicon filled social symbology. And it would make sense.

I would become a lion, not a house cat. And the lion would speak. And we would understand him.“

That’s why I think it is so important to gently unpick what “feeling like a man” or “feeling like a woman” really means before a non-reversible path is taken.

I would be devastated if any of my children never got to experience a healthy relationship and sexual pleasure/intimacy. So yes for this reason alone I would want them to thoroughly explore the pros and cons of any surgery in particular.

I think your child would be devastated too, but unless you steer them away from the validation model, nothing they read is likely to give them an honest picture of the devastation that gender reassignment surgery can have on a healthy body.

In a survey of domestic abuse suffered by transgendered individuals they labelled partners of transgendered individuals being suicidal as an abusive act towards the transgendered person. Therefore given that Stonewall claim stating/being suicidal is an act of abuse towards others, do you think that it is appropriate by their own definition to be abusive towards others by these reference's by suicide?

I'm not convinced that social transition, pronouns etc does help in a significant way twoHopes. From the transpeople I've met and spoken to, this doesn't seem to be the case.

If you look at any of the gender dysphoria reddit subs they're full of people talking about how "coming out" as trans and switching pronouns actually made the distress much more intense. The trans YouTuber Jammidodger says something similar, that each stage of his transition just refocused the dysphoria onto a new body part, and even Blaire White who passes very well and is probably accepted as a woman by most people she meets said that going off oestrogen for a few months to try and regain her fertility was torturous to her (it didn't work btw, but she didn't think loss of fertility mattered even as an adult transitioner. Now at 27 she regrets that). I also shadowed for a while at a clinic for adult transitioners whilst at med school and the young transmen (mostly around age 18) who had been "out" for a few years and were well on their way to passing after starting testosterone still described extremely severe dysphoria. And finally the trans man that I know personally, even now after having all the surgeries and medication and passing 99% of the time still says to me sometimes that his dysphoria isn't really gone. So I do think that for the small group of people for whom a trans identity is driven by dysphoria from a young age (rather than the ROGD group), that there may be actual neurological issues at play that aren't merely sociological. But I absolutely believe that the social issues of gender (by which I mean sex based stereotypes) confuse and exaserbate that and muddy the waters for diagnosis.

The fact that the various groups claiming to be the opposite sex are so niche and different from each other should give people pause at the very least. People who are gay or bi are just as likely to be black or white, old or young, rich or poor etc, but if you're "trans" you're probably either a primary aged child with distress towards your body and a strong preference for opposite sex stereotypes; a 13 year old lesbian with asd, and a history or bullying, trauma, or sexual abuse; or a 40 year old man with some unusual sexual tastes. And you're almost certainly from a western country with plenty of access to the Internet.

Anyway, I don't think it's "one thing" is my point, and I certainly don't think it's anything like being gay. Distress towards your body may have a physical cause, but the leap from that to believing you actually are the opposite sex is clearly a social phenomena. It always strikes me as being similar to the kind of mass hysteria outbreaks that lead entire peer groups of girls in places like Malaysia to claim they're suddenly possessed by Jin.

Anyway, sorry for the derail. Thanks for your answers OP they are very sensible and well considered, your child is lucky to have you.

I'm surprised you refer to long hair and an interest in horse riding as being "typically associated with girls"

This shows to me that sex-stereotypes are prevalent in your house.

I do not (and never have) associate long hair and horse riding with girls. They are 100% equal opportunity items with a big concentration of men earning most as jockeys.

Do you think that such strong sex-stereotyping has affected your daughter to the point where she thinks she should have been male?

full of people talking about how "coming out" as trans and switching pronouns actually made the distress much more intense.

This I see evidence of with my daughter’s friends.

Lightson tricky to explain succinctly because our language is evolved to describe the material world.

Okay. You know that thing where you're driving (eg) and you don't realise your mind's wandered off and you're on autopilot until something unexpected happens and suddenly you're back in your body with a great big whoosh?

It's in that sort of area. If we're talking dysphoria that whoosh might be generalised or it might be centred on a particular physical body part, and it feels bad. And potentially progressively badder every time it happens if it's not tackled head on.

I get it in my actual fanny; it made pelvic floor exercises a nightmare. Can't manage more than about three before it gets too much.

But the word 'self' is less than useful to describe the concept to others, because others are using a narrower definition of self. In this context the word refers more to this body's experienced existence.

Might make more sense if you're familiar with mind/body dualism and the idea that the entire sense emporium is created by the brain.

(Sorry if this seems like a derail, I just agree with OP that we need to hash out the language and find common understanding.)

Oh one more thing OP, there's a group that is collecting info for good councillors, people who will explore and challenge the possible root causes of a child's trans identity rather than just blindly affirming it. People who will ask the hard questions about trauma and sexism and what "feeling like a man/woman" actually means. If you think you have one of these councillors it'd be great if you could contact them and pass on those details so other parents can contact them. I think the group is called Bayswater support or something like that, hopefully someone else can clarify. Or contact transgender trend and they can signpost you.

Here’s the link to Bayswater:

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/#

@Winesalot

full of people talking about how "coming out" as trans and switching pronouns actually made the distress much more intense.

This I see evidence of with my daughter’s friends.

I understand that Tavistock say you should not socially transition until you see them.

@SciFiScream

I'm surprised you refer to long hair and an interest in horse riding as being "typically associated with girls"

This shows to me that sex-stereotypes are prevalent in your house.

I do not (and never have) associate long hair and horse riding with girls. They are 100% equal opportunity items with a big concentration of men earning most as jockeys.

Do you think that such strong sex-stereotyping has affected your daughter to the point where she thinks she should have been male?

I’m just back from school run but wanted to quickly answer this particular post. I think the point I was trying to make albeit rather clumsily was that I personally don’t think horse riding and long hair is only a ‘girls’ thing however OTHERS may have that perception. I have been asked on numerous occasions why I don’t force my son to have his hair cut yet many years before coming out and well before expressing any gender issues my trans son had his hair cut into a pixie cut and not one person asked me why I didn’t make them grow their hair long I would argue that in wider society (not in our house!) boys rather than girls have more constraints on what they wear and how they present themselves.

I have a list of questions for you all too shortly!

Thank you for engaging, I’m generally finding this interesting and it’s good hearing many different perspectives. It’s easy to find comfort in your own bubble sometimes particularly in lockdown!

Genuinely and not generally FGS!

Please have a look at the Bayswater link I posted, OP.

About as far as you can get from Stonewall in terms of appropriate and practical support, imo.