I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@Lightsontbut

Also gets on better with men and boys because he likes the banter and the more direct communication style.

This seems a very gendered thing to say? By this estimation, I am a male! How did you come to believe this was an expression of gender?

I am a male too according to this. I've gotten along better with men my entire life...

Let me go inform my bf that he is gay and in relationship with a man...

I work in CAMHS and I am very concerned about the prevalence of young ASD girls identifying as trans. As gender identity is not in itself a mental health disorder then CAMHS would not be the appropriate service unless that have a separate team. CAMHS also do not offer “ counselling “
Also is is not possible that your child’s mental health problems actually stem from their ASD as is their gender identity choice?

Right I’m of to bed, I’ll be back in tomorrow to have a look at some of the other points. Thank you for the healthy debate, always useful I think to be challenged as well as challenging! As always Mumsnet gets you thinking

I hope you don't take this the wrong way OP, but I mean it from a supportive place.
You have had a gut feeling and open discussions about your child's gender and gender dysphoria for 6 years and say you have changed your mind about a lot of things, yet you seem to be in those initial stages (I'm comparing you to other mothers of trans teens I know, so I hope that isn't too much of a generalisation) where everything seems a bit vague, swirling, you 'can't comprehend' the thing that is absolutely core to your child's identity and you seem unable to put your finger on concrete facts, definitions, or have reached some sort of self-analysis about how you conceptualise the nitty-gritty of gender.

For example, you can't say anything specific that you have learned or what you have changed your mind on other than - I'm extrapolating from the hints you have given - you now think there is some sort of innate gender identity in the brain, and before you didn't think this?

Do you think on some level you are in denial and this why you haven't fully articulated a framework on this - what it is, what it means to your child - because you are still unsure about what to tell yourself?

Cod psychology, obviously!! Really hope it's not insulting - it just struck me that other mums who've posted about this over the years have little illustrative stories that showed them 'the light', as it were.

Oops, cross-posted. Hope you sleep well.

Op thanks for replying to my post. You say that if your daughter still thinks she is make at 18, then you believe that she is likely to retain that belief for life. However, there are a significant amount of female to male detransitioners who are in their early 20s, terrifyingly
www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/

My son would say he doesn’t feel male he knows he is male thus thee is a disconnect between what he knows to be true in his head and what his physical body is.

What does your child think being male is, other than being a human with a male body?

A poster mentioned brain wiring: this is a common point of misunderstanding. I never noticed until my therapist commented on it, odd quirk of language, people often say brain when they mean unconscious mind.

A poster mentioned not understanding identifying with your elbow: misunderstanding rooted in meanings of 'identity'. Consider it synonymous with 'consciously experienced self' and it'll make more sense.

Give him a hug from me, OP, from one dysphoric to another. He's right, no one would choose dysphoria. All we get to choose is how we manage it.

I think your child's beliefs are common and have been discussed. I'd like to ask you rather about your own change in beliefs. Why does personally knowing a gender questioning child make you change your mind about the meaning of sex and gender? Were you not aware of the beliefs of gender believers before your own child was affected?

It is perfectly possible to acknowledge the difficulties of gender dysphoria without suddenly becoming a convert to the doctrine of gendered souls. In what way could your child act to make you think in some sense they are the opposite sex as opposed to having a deep discomfort with their sexed body? If my child suddenly discovered the meaning of their life in Christianity it wouldn't make me a Christian. Do you see what I mean?

Do you ever worry that all this mulling it over, navel gazing, trying to be as woke as possible (sorry, can't think of a better way to put it!) is doing your child a disservice? Have you fully looked into the friendship circle? I understand this having to having names and labels is common these days. My own 13 year old tells me that girls especially at his school simply have to be bi, gay, pan ...

I'd be concerned that this is more the ASD talking than a real true desire to be a boy and that being surrounded by 'yes men' (or yes women) just feeds into it and fuels the fire.

I don’t have a question, but as an autistic adult woman I feel waves of horror reading this.
It’s normal for autistic children (possibly more so for girls) to feel a disconnect with who they are and the expectations society puts in them. It was that way 30 odd years ago, it’s far worse now.
Adults around the child/teen should be there to support the child through this, not affirm that they are actually the opposite sex, because that isn’t possible. This is in exactly the same way that you wouldn’t agree with an anorexic teen that they are fat, so you will help them lose more weight.

I have a teenage dd who is likely autistic and has an eating disorder. The way she reacts to things is exactly the same as those with gender dysphoria, but no one would be unethical enough to book her in for liposuction now she’s 18. It is a mental condition that needs careful treatment and support, not something to affirm.

I also look back to my own experiences, in the 80s and early 90s. That old trope “I wasn’t like the other girls” was true for me, and true for the vast majority of autistic women I know. Many of us agree that if we were teenagers right now we would be trans, but none of us are talking about this wistfully, we are mostly massively relieved that we are not living in these weird, regressive times.

I was in my very early 20s when I started to feel more comfortable with who I was. Had I been allowed the choice at 18 or even 19 I would have chosen to have my breasts removed, and opt out of anything female, because that obviously wasn’t me.
Now, in my 40s, I can clearly see why I felt like this, and I’m able to understand that whilst I’m a woman, beyond biological functions, this doesn’t really mean much on a personal level. On a societal level it really does make a difference, but you cannot opt out of being female.

I can’t read your posts and feel any positivity in it at all. I see typical talk about suicide stats (which is wrong) and talk akin to being born in the wrong body, and all I can feel is sad for your daughter, who with all this validation may well regret her irreversible decision in the next 10 years.

I know this is harsh, but all parents of trans children need to really search the downside of the cultish gender stuff, because so much of the factual, scientific and rational information is bullied out of the mainstream, and there is a hell of a lot at stake - your child’s future, fertility, sex life, health (mental and physical).

My question to you is: what does your child mean by dysphoria? There's no evidence that there are boy brains installed inside female bodies (yes I've read the studies). Gender dysphoria tends to be a catch all term that is used to describe a discomfort with ones sexed body. And that can be caused by a whole gamut of reasons.

I hated my female body as a teenager - really hated it. For me that manifested as anorexia (starving away my hips, breasts and periods) as gender dysphoria was not a widely used term back then. I'm almost certain if I was a teenager today I'd be calling myself a trans guy.

There's every chance your child will grow out of this as they get older and more comfortable in their own skin. The stats show that is highly likely. In what way is affirming the idea that they are "born in the wrong body" helping them on that journey? To what extent will constantly reinforcing the idea that their body is somehow wrong actually make things worse? The sad fact is that your child will never be male, no matter how hard they wish for it. And they need you to keep a level head on this.

@FloraFlamingo

Do you ever worry that all this mulling it over, navel gazing, trying to be as woke as possible (sorry, can't think of a better way to put it!) is doing your child a disservice? Have you fully looked into the friendship circle? I understand this having to having names and labels is common these days. My own 13 year old tells me that girls especially at his school simply have to be bi, gay, pan ...

I'd be concerned that this is more the ASD talking than a real true desire to be a boy and that being surrounded by 'yes men' (or yes women) just feeds into it and fuels the fire.

I agree with this. But the OP has done this for years - ensuring the children were brought up without referring things as specifically gender based and encouraging fluidity. In many households, people don't reference toys as specifically boys or girls either, but the OP seems to have put an emphasis on gender precisely by trying so hard not to put an emphasis on gender.

It is so 'right on' that it is actually confusing and damaging. My boys had, for example, ballet lessons and played football. Encouraging them to do everything that interested them was healthy, but the OP sounds like she took it to another level...sorry OP, but you must take some responsibilty here...for example, to bring it down to a base level, I'm sure you embraced the boys having long hair and wearing pink. But did you ever take them to a rugby match and embrace them shaving their hair into a no.1....

PaperScissorsRock

I feel like things have actually gone backwards. I spent my teens feeling like an imposter and not a proper girl. I swung between resenting people for assuming who I was and what I cared about because I had breasts, and then feeling guilty for not being what a girl was supposed to be. I wished I was a boy, because it seemed like I would fit in so much better.

It would have been nice for someone to expressly reassure me that I was fine the way I was, whether my personality and talents conformed to standards of femininity, but I didn't. But at least I didn't have anyone reinforcing all the most damaging lines of thought I ever had! Tumblr trans discourse is like an anti-Mindfulness course.

OP obviously it is incredibly concerning that your child is suicidal. You also state Stonewalls dubious figures. Trans teenagers will be repeatedly reading figures like this and statements such as “do you want a live son or dead daughter”. Do you think that this may make depressed children feel that this is something they ought to feel if they are trans?

In addition, if you have read around this subject then you will be aware that transitioning does not solve mental health difficulties but rather results in dramatically increased rates of suicide. Therefore, do you think transitioning is the most appropriate path for a teen who is already suicidal?

Great thread OP. Getting my questions inline for tomorrow:

• is your son same sex attracted (by which I mean attracted to females) and was any of the bullying they faced related to this?
• How are you defining the words "gender" and "gender idetity"?
• Do you really believe your son is literally male, or do you think that he is experiencing a false belief with an unknown but possibly neurological aitiology? Believing the latter isnt incompatible with supporting his identity or transition BTW.

My personal belief about children who are dysphoric towards their physical bodies from a young age (so, not the cohort of girls who get ROGD in their teens years) is that it may well be a neurological issue similar to people with BDD who feel like they shouldn't really have their arm or leg and want these amputated. Our brains build a map of our bodies to help us locate ourselves in space (called proprioception), it's how you're still able to touch your nose with your eyes shut. One theory with BDD is that the brain builds an incorrect map. It tells you that you don't have an arm/leg etc, but you clearly do, and the mismatch causes distress. I see no reason why childhood GD shouldn't have a similar cause, that the brain builds a faulty map causing you to expect sex characteristics that you don't have. I find this idea much more compelling than the frankly sexist and largely debunked concept of pink or blue brains.

My last thought is on the subject of therapy. You say we should support this no matter which side of the debate we're on. The one thing GC feminists have consistently advocated for is significantly more high quality, robust, and far reaching therapy. I think I can safely say that if we could snap our fingers and get every trans identified child immediate access to unbiased evidence based therapy to help them find non medical ways of managing their distress, every one of us would do it. I do think transition helps some people, but it should always be a last resort after every option has been exhausted; it should be in the firm understanding that the patient cannot really change sex; and it should be (sorry if this is harsh) considered a bad outcome and a failure of the medical pathway.

Hope you have a good night's sleep OP, sorry my post ran much longer than I indented.

"My son frequently says if people knew how sh*t it was to have gender dysphoria they would realise that it’s not a choice as no one would willingly put themselves through this."

Let me for a second present a different perspective.

Could it be that the shit part is the discomfort in their body, but the one caused by external factors, ie the way they are treated because of their body and sex.

Could it be that the things no one would willingly put themselves through is:

Being a child who gets hit on by adult men?
Being a child who is coming to the realization that half of the population is stronger than them and is scared by that?
Being a child has has suddenly stopped being treated as a human by society and started getting treated as an object?
Being assaulted and/or harassed by boys?

Etc. you get the point.

Could it be that a 14 year old is confusing this with gender dysphoria.

Do you literally believe your female child is male? (As opposed to having a social identity as 'boy', while remaining female.)

I ask b/C I also had a daughter with a GD diagnosis, and a son with a GD diagnosis, and while I clearly believe that distress over ones sexed body exists, and requires supportive psycho-therapeutic treatment, it is impossible for me to believe my children literally are the opposite sex. Because it's not true.

Where are you getting your compelling info on neurology and the gendered brain ? As far as I'm aware, there is no such info that controls for confounds such as same sex orientation, hormone effect etc.

@Fraida
Thank you for posting. I have a godson who is trans and we fear his lack of sexual experience isn't allowing him to understand what he'll lose out on if he continues on hormones and surgery. You wrote the below on sex and I have a follow up question below:

Absolutely, we have discussed it already. He is very bright and reads a lot which is helpful, we are also a very open and transparent family so won’t be sugar coating anything!

Intellectual understanding of sexual experiences and ACTUAL sexual experiences are very different. No way did I understand true joy and satisfaction in sex until I was well into my early 20s. I don't think late blooming sexuality is unusual, especially for women. Do you worry your child will miss out on the vital human experience of sexual pleasure and sexual intimacy?

Also, how have your other children responded to your son? Do you worry that he might regret his decision in the future and the impact it will have on your relationship as his parents? Do you miss your daughter and/or the life you might’ve envisioned for her?

I desperately wanted to be a boy as a child. It was almost all-consuming. I was so happy at 13, flat-chested and 6 foot tall. I really believed I would avoid puberty amd was so tall due to the universe understanding that I was a boy.

I was born in the 1970s so doing something about my delusions was not an option. My parents were very matter of fact. They did not indulge my delusions but told me over and over that I was a girl and there was nothing wrong with being a girl who liked x or felt x. My mother was exactly the same as me as a child, so although never a perfect mum, she did understand my very real feelings but refused to indulge them.

I got my period at 14, grew breast and reached peace with my body and sex by 15. I am a perfectly happy middle-aged mother of 3 now. Possibly on the spectrum but I have never sought a diagnosis.

Had I been born decades later and had parents like you, I think my outcome would be different. As a gender non-conforming child, I would have loved to have had woke parents like you. I would have loved to have endlessly talked about gender identities. I would have loved to be supported and understood and validated. Going to counselling would have given legitimacy to my delusions and they would have continued well past their natural use-by date. Looking back at my childhood self, I believe affirmation and endless support to explore my gender issues would have resulted in the natural stop not happening. I would have gone on blockers, cross sex hormones and had surgery at 18.

It would have been a disaster for me. I wouldn’t have had any idea about loss of sexual pleasure or fertility, even if it had been explained to me.

So my question is, how do you know you aren’t helping to create a disaster for your child? What do you know that my parents didn’t know?

I desperately wanted to be a boy too. I would estimate that I cried more or less every day from the age of about 11 to 21 because I hated my breasts so much. I remember slashing my chest with a knife when I was about 14 as I had been visiting an elderly relative and had a sudden realisation that she had breasts too and therefore they would never go away. I think on some level I had thought that eventually I wouldn't have to worry about them any more. I only stopped crying once I had breast reduction surgery.

It was news to me as an adult to discover that not all women hated their breasts. I thought hating your female body was just part of what it was to be female. I'm in my mid 40s and still hate them, still dread seeing myself in the bathroom mirror.

I am horrified by the idea that if I were a teenager now, I might be put on a pathway to lifelong infertility.