I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

There is a paucity of psychological support for every mental distress in children. CAMHS teams are drowning. I'm sure it's no comfort that this is not just an issue for this trans children but I think the amount of investment that would be needed to give the support people want would require a level of taxation people would just not go for. This suggests that we need to look at what society is doing wrong to cause such distress. For me I think it is the highly gendered and embodied messages being given to children which then makes them truly believe that the solution is to change their body in a way which science cannot (yet?) fully offer. You cannot make a male body fully female and vice versa and focuses on doing so might be detracting from how else we could help change things for very distressed people. Do you see it differently to me?

But this has made me think about the brain and the wiring of the brain and how this defines gender too.

What are you reading to get this information?

@DappledOliveGroves

Given the enormous increase in girls identifying as boys, and the associated awful mental health that goes hand in hand, are you not tempted to ban screens, any association with others identifying in the same way, and potentially move somewhere massively remote and home school or similar? These issues and ideas were not around twenty, thirty years ago, and girls grew up without breast binding, mastectomies and hormones.

I honestly think if I had a child that was so determined to do irrevocable harm to herself that I'd move somewhere like Uganda or Kenya to get the hell out of our warped society and screwed up ideas. When life is about trying to put food on the table, avoid war, famine and live in dire poverty, as so many people in developing countries are, I can't see they'd have much time for gender ideology.

Yes absolutely you do ant to live in a an inpenetrable bubble... you do wonder about peer influence and why there are so many more girls in particular now experiencing gender identity issues. However the other side of the coin is that girls may have been suffering but they didn’t know that gender fluidity was an option and actually being able to find like minded individuals on social media is supportive and helpful. It’s worth noting that 60% of kids referred to the Tavi decide not to transition and that they don’t have gender issues any more either before the are seen are during/after.

@FamilyOfAliens

Ultimately that will be his choice in the future... if he wants to go through surgery and is fully versed in the potential risks then I will of course support him in his decision

Will you be telling your child about infertility and loss of sexual function when you discuss “potential risks”?

Absolutely, we have discussed it already. He is very bright and reads a lot which is helpful, we are also a very open and transparent family so won’t be sugar coating anything!

I guess like many of you I thought in a very binary and biological way maybe - you are born with male or female body parts and that is that nothing to see let’s move on. Everything else is about gender expression or cultural expectations. But this has made me think about the brain and the wiring of the brain and how this defines gender too. Neuroscience fascinates me and thus I’m rethinking and relearning what gender means.

Right, so can you give an example of something specific you previously thought that you have now changed your mind on?

Most people on the Feminism board wouldn't agree that one's biological sex is 'nothing to see, move on' - it's the basis for countless inequalities and oppression! Can you expand a bit more on that?

Secondly, you've talked a lot about your son's acute gender dysphoria. Are you of the opinion that this gender dysphoria is necessary to be transgender, or can you be just as valid a transgender person with absolutely no gender dysphoria at all?

Lots of questions already about your child so mine are different. What is your definition of feminism, OP? I'm confused that you refer to your child as male. Are sex and gender the same thing?

Not necessarily for you OP (it is not a question), but for others on this thread who are interested in brain sex, Sophie Scott’s talk is great.
vimeo.com/414833798

@Lightsontbut

I am interested in how identity became so embodied. My elbow and all of my other body parts are just there. I don't like them, I hate my body. It's ugly, it's failing me and it's often painful. But it's got nothing to do with my identity as a person. How does one's identity become so embodied? I'm not sure this compares with a painful injury. If you injured yourself in a way which caused no pain or loss of function (which is a better comparison?) would it make much difference?

Fair point... a clumsy comparison maybe. But many injuries and so forth do impact on identity and sense of self for example amputees? I would say that a soldier who lost their leg in war would have to potentially redefine who they are?

It’s worth noting that 60% of kids referred to the Tavi decide not to transition and that they don’t have gender issues any more either before the are seen are during/after
Oh my gosh, please can you link to this study? I have a family member who would be really interested in this data - as an academic I know you'll understand!

I'm very sad to say OP that a rare of long term follow up study of trans people, also conducted in Sweden, found that following sex reassignment trans people 'have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.'

The report shared by Winesalot from Sweden references concerns around the use of suicide data as a motivation for gender reassignment rather than psychiatric care: 'People who commit suicide have an underlying mental illness that requires expert treatment and care.' Sweden now appears to be pushing back against the affirmative model, in part, as PP pointed out because of the high numbers of girls they're seeing with GD, that's a trend echoed here and in Canada.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

"But this has made me think about the brain and the wiring of the brain and how this defines gender too. Neuroscience fascinates me and thus I’m rethinking and relearning what gender mean"

There's really no such thing as gendered brains in humans, at least not in any way that results in major cognitive differences between the sexes. The evidence actually seems to point towards the human brain having evolved to protect itself against sexual dimorphism, like the kind in rats and lower monkeys. The idea of male and female brains is actually sexist and retrograde, and I'm dismayed that it's become revived again as a way to explain transgenderism.

Have the school been supportive? Was it a shock when he told you? How does he cope with periods and having breasts? Does he have a partner? How did he choose his name and did you adjust to calling him that straight away? Does he seem happier now? Do you worry more about his future?

@Smellbellina

Thanks for answering OP. I have a second question if that’s ok, ignore if not. Do you ever worry that endorsing the idea that he was ‘born in the wrong body’ to explain his mental health is endorsed by you in order to hide from any deeper probing as to what might have happened in his young life to cause him to do wholly disassociate from his own body? I.e, the problem is within himself and nothing you could/should have protected him from.

Ouch! Gosh I have done so much navel gazing and asking myself this question over and over... have I been too ‘woke’ and has this pushed him to want to be more binary? Have I missed something in his childhood that has caused him to feel like this?

Interestingly in his first gender assessment session the psychologist said they will be exploring childhood traumas and so on to see if there are other explanations for how he feels.

I am truly sorry about your child's distress but it should be pointed out that Stonewall's figures about suicide are not reliable.
www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

It is also true that there can be a significantly higher level of suicide ideation amongst ASD children compared with other children . Do you think that some of your child's distress could be due to ASD rather than gender dysphoria?

This is going to sound harsh and it really isn’t meant to be, but it’s a question I have been pondering a while and I would like the chance to ask it.

Do you think your own openness to “what gender is” has in part led to this? I know it sounds odd but kids with trans leanings to me seem to come from backgrounds that already question gender identity and engage with the whole thing.

Along families that are just seeming to get on with life without thinking about it much, there doesn’t seem to be this trend. None that I know anyway. I just wonder sometimes if we (and definitely the internet) are causing this issue?

And it is an issue, because unlike other things around identity this one is medically brutal and the end goal - changing sex - can never be achieved which seems heartbreakingly sad to me for a child.

Fair point... a clumsy comparison maybe. But many injuries and so forth do impact on identity and sense of self for example amputees? I would say that a soldier who lost their leg in war would have to potentially redefine who they are?

Potentially but that is about the sort of man they are, the sort of woman they are (?sporty? strong? quick?)so not really a comparison here perhaps? We all do this as we get older I suppose? I no longer see myself as a young woman, for example (well, I haven't for a long time) but the core of 'me' is continuous. I am not sure your example made anything clearer to me if I'm honest. I guess some of us just don't embody our identities in the way that others do. What might account for that I wonder and does that tell us anything about who is more or less likely to feel the 'disconnect' you refer to.

@Harmarsuperstar

As he is only 14 he cannot start hormones until he is 16 and then surgery post 18, this allows time for development, maturity and to work through what he is feeling

This really makes me laugh. Because 18 year olds are known for being mature and able to work things through, like how a highly sexist patriarchal society, ridden with gender stereotypes, makes some girls believe they must be male.
I'm only just starting to properly understand all this at the age of 45

Indeed the brain does not finish its puberty if you like until the mid twenties however legally he will be an adult at 18 and medically any decisions will be made by him alone. However since this has been going on since he is 8 I would wager that if still knows that he is male at 18 then this is likely to be permanent (based on the consistent, resistant and persistent criteria). Meanwhile DH and I will provide every opportunity for him to explore his gender thoroughly and other associated issues to ensure he is as sure as he can be.

@TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

Hi OP How does your son present at school ? What did his friends make of it?

My own ds has a ftm friend, but has only known him as a boy.

He presents as male and has a solid group of friends who have been very supportive. He has been badly bullied previously though.

I was thinking you were being kind of sensible till you mentioned stonewall and their made up figures.
Also 16 is not an adult in the uk
Dealing with this in my family and your affirmation and foggy thinking about gender is going to cause so much damage.

Hello OP, did you mean to put this thread in AMA?

@DeaconBoo

I do not feel any disconnect between my identity and physical body I can’t really say how that feels.

I don't understand this - what do you mean by your "identity" here? E.g. I can't comprehend what a connection or disconnection between my race and my body, or my name and my body, would be - what is it you are referring to? Your sense of how feminine or masculine you feel in day-to-day life?

I can’t comprehend it either which is why I don’t feel dysphoric... I guess that is in part the point of dysphoria. I don’t generally feel female - the only time was when I gave birth! - I know I’m female. My son would say he doesn’t feel male he knows he is male thus thee is a disconnect between what he knows to be true in his head and what his physical body is.

May I ask you a personal question OP, are you also on the autistic spectrum?

Also, do you honestly believe that a female can become a male?

My son would say he doesn’t feel male he knows he is male thus thee is a disconnect between what he knows to be true in his head and what his physical body is.

But I guess that takes us right back to what does 'being male' feel like? is there anything that males would consistently endorse as 'being male'? There isn't for females I don't think. Is the idea that this has any meaning a part of the problem?

You can't 'feel male' as there is nothing which only males feel or which every male feels.

You can want a different body of course but that is not the same is it?

[quote Fraida]@DeaconBoo Stonewall have the exact figures here: Almost half (48 per cent) of trans people in Britain have attempted suicide at least once; 84 per cent have thought about it. More than half (55 per cent) have been diagnosed with depression at some point.

Those figures to me are shocking and deeply upsetting [/quote]
People argue a lot about suicide statistics, but more rarely do people consider the differemce between causation and correlation. Are they experiencing depression because they just "are trans", nothing else, or is something else going on that is causing the depression and the feelings of gwnder dysphoria?

People presenting as having gender dysphoria have higher rates than the wider population of autistic spectrum disorders (linked with depression and suicidal thoughts), experience of abuse, including childhood sexual abuse (linked with depression and suicidal thoughts).

Source: genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

[quote Fraida]@DeaconBoo Stonewall have the exact figures here: Almost half (48 per cent) of trans people in Britain have attempted suicide at least once; 84 per cent have thought about it. More than half (55 per cent) have been diagnosed with depression at some point.

Those figures to me are shocking and deeply upsetting [/quote]
Thanks for answers OP

I find the trouble with those figures is they’ve never given context of before, after or during transition and it’s hard to make assumptions as I can’t know, for example p, if a teen has taken puberty blockers.

I’m old school so I hope you will take this wording okay. I only know two transsexuals but I use that term carefully as I think it’s important for transsexual and transgender to stay as separate.

So I’m also curious what you think gender is. The dysphoria leading to someone having surgery as an adult, I get.

The “I am trans because I choose to look and behave a particular way” I don’t get. I feel as if I might have been set on this path if I were a child now, which seems very different to an adult choosing to have surgery.