I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@drspouse

I think what people are struggling with here is that, ultimately, you are going along with your child's idea of what is possible for them and their body in the future instead of helping them to accept reality. Their idea of what's possible for them has been fuelled by the internet and the internet for these children is run by people like Challenor. How can we not be concerned about your parenting? I don't get why anyone would trust a narrative that says something that is impossible, is true. Especially not if that narrative is presented to you by a child. Other people are fooling your child, like they might fool my child by saying that magic snake oil can cure his neurological disorder. Surely it's your job to gently persuade your child that this isn't true, rather than go along with it?

I think you can both support and challenge at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive concepts. Certainly that is the line taken by his gender psychologist in the appointments... yes we support you but we need to explore all avenues about why you might be experiencing dysphoria.

His reality is that he is a boy, I am not blindly following that... it’s been a very long road to get to this point and we have challenged and questioned along the way however at this point in time and where we are right now is that he still feels innately male. I thus remain curious and open but also trying to understand the essence of that feeling of his body being wrong. I thus support him as trans and will do all I can to support him in the future whether this has permanency or if it is transient. My gut feeling is that the former is more likely.

Clymeme I know, but OP didn't ignore the recommendation; she pointed out that the polarisation and mud-slinging means she's wary of accepting anyone at face value when they say "this is unbiased".

Which, so far as I can see, is a good attitude to have. Based on what she's said I have faith she'll check out those resources and be open to assessing them on their merits. Win for us, eh?

(They really are worth a look, OP. Alternative perspectives are always a good thing.)

[quote Clymene]@TyroTerf - there are resources available to parents of trans identifying children in the uk which don't follow the gender affirmation route - transgender trend, Bayswater support.

The links have been posted a number of times on the thread but the OP hasn't commented on them. Not has she responded to the challenges of stonewall stats.

I think she's happy with the way she's supporting her child and that is obviously her prerogative. But you can't really post in support of taking an affirmative approach to a gender non conforming child on MN and not expect some challenge. [/quote]
I wasn’t expecting to not be challenged always happy to be challenged it’s how we grow and learn.

Just don’t want to feel attacked,

I have saved all the links that have been posted, seen the Bayswater one before and it has informed in particular my approach.

Been googling the Swedish researcher mentioned further up the thread too.

at this point in time and where we are right now is that he still feels innately male.

What does this mean? How can your female child 'feel innately male'? What do you think this means, and what does your child think this means? Is this feeling at odds with reality being explored with the psychologist?

@FamilyOfAliens I think the ability to change your mind as a parent shows great strength and models to our children that we don’t always get things right and that is ok - as long as that is supported with an explanation about why we are changing tack.

Fundamentally though it would be wrong for me to say he can never change his sex via medical transitioning as this factually incorrect and I’m mindful that once he is 16 he could do this with or without my consent. What I can do is to make sure that we have a robust and thorough assessment ahead of this point.

a lot of the resources that dont follow the validation route are not exactly very helpful either.
Its an incredibly tricky balancing act to make sure your child feels accepted and loved, but without promising falsehoods to them, such as they can be a boy if they want to, or "boy" is a feeling. If I dont get this right, I could very easily push my child into the arms of some glitter family. I will not be stoppig her access to the internet, although she does have restrictions on it. We are into the internet age now and that ship has sailed. We need to have conversations about the things they are told online and keep our children thinking critically about what they read or see online, rather than just banning it.

I do honestly feel for you OP, although my strategy for dealing with it is different to yours. I dont think its as simple as a lot of people think

OP didn't ignore the recommendation; she pointed out that the polarisation and mud-slinging means she's wary of accepting anyone at face value when they say "this is unbiased".

She also seemed to be conflating the genuine concern of many women that children are being led to believe that their sex is a matter of choice with genuine transphobes who shout abuse at her child. I don't see what we're doing by pointing out the pitfalls inherent in the affirmation only approach as mud-slinging.

Fundamentally though it would be wrong for me to say he can never change his sex via medical transitioning as this factually incorrect

Have I read this right? Do you think people can change sex? It would be factually incorrect to tell your child that medical transitioning will change their sex.

His reality? His belief rather. And possibly OPs too, I was never quite clear on that.

Even if they develop a test that can 100% predict gender identity from brain structures, physical sex is still relevant to how we interact with the world, we would still need to categorise by physical sex for things like medicine, sport, prisons etc because of the physical differences in male and female bodies. It's not at all clear to me what relevance brain-sex, should such a thing be proved to exist, would have on us. Our brains are so different as individuals anyway. Isn't categorising by sex where physical bodies are irrelevant just plain sexism?

I dont think its as simple as a lot of people think

I don't think anyone thinks it's simple. I've read enough accounts from parents dealing with this to know that it's anything but.

Here's one:
lilymaynard.com/my-first-article-a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia/

Fundamentally though it would be wrong for me to say he can never change his sex via medical transitioning as this factually incorrect

Your child can never change sex, ever. They are female and will remain female until the day they die. Three hundred years later and archaeologist will be able to tell they were female. The most they can do is fairly extreme cosmetic surgery and take medication the side effect of which will be, along with raising risk of cancer and heart disease, to cause some masculinisation of features.

@OldCrone

at this point in time and where we are right now is that he still feels innately male.

What does this mean? How can your female child 'feel innately male'? What do you think this means, and what does your child think this means? Is this feeling at odds with reality being explored with the psychologist?

I don’t know how he can as I don’t have dysphoria but he does. I think DS describes it as expecting to see a male body and feeling that the female body is wrong.

We are in the early stages with the psychologist who is exploring all avenues such as trauma, ASD thinking, childhood experiences and son on. The psychologist is not disputing what he feels but rather exploring why he feels as he does, does that make more sense?

@Branleuse

a lot of the resources that dont follow the validation route are not exactly very helpful either. Its an incredibly tricky balancing act to make sure your child feels accepted and loved, but without promising falsehoods to them, such as they can be a boy if they want to, or "boy" is a feeling. If I dont get this right, I could very easily push my child into the arms of some glitter family. I will not be stoppig her access to the internet, although she does have restrictions on it. We are into the internet age now and that ship has sailed. We need to have conversations about the things they are told online and keep our children thinking critically about what they read or see online, rather than just banning it.

I do honestly feel for you OP, although my strategy for dealing with it is different to yours. I dont think its as simple as a lot of people think

What you say about the internet ship sailing resonates, I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging our children to think critically about what they see and read online. Banning in my mind pushes things underground and then means that you are unable to monitor and provide those checks and balances.

As an academic (not in anything related to psychology, gender, feminism Incidentally) it’s in my DNA to be a critical thinker and to read things with an open mind.

@Aesopfable

Fundamentally though it would be wrong for me to say he can never change his sex via medical transitioning as this factually incorrect

Your child can never change sex, ever. They are female and will remain female until the day they die. Three hundred years later and archaeologist will be able to tell they were female. The most they can do is fairly extreme cosmetic surgery and take medication the side effect of which will be, along with raising risk of cancer and heart disease, to cause some masculinisation of features.

This is of course true, your DNA remains forever more that can’t change however I do believe that brain chemistry and wiring is as much a part of who we are as our physical bodies. What’s to say - I’m not a biologist or neuroscience - that there is not some neural wiring in the brain that occurs that does make us male or female.

This for example is an interesting study: academic.oup.com/cercor/article-abstract/30/5/2755/5669983

It's ok to say you don't think someone can physically change sex. That isn't transphobic.

I think this is where the nuances in discussions about trans issues become impossible to talk about because people are afraid to agree on what seems like a 'big' thing as it's positioned as taking sides.

I understand why you've avoided saying "no, I don't believe people can physically change sex" because it probably feels like if you say that people will pile on saying well then why are you doing xyz.

But it would be powerful if some parents of trans people did say what I think most of them (especially clearly intelligent feminists like yourself) they truly believe - that people cannot physically change their sex.

I hope that makes sense?

@thirdfiddle

His reality? His belief rather. And possibly OPs too, I was never quite clear on that.

Even if they develop a test that can 100% predict gender identity from brain structures, physical sex is still relevant to how we interact with the world, we would still need to categorise by physical sex for things like medicine, sport, prisons etc because of the physical differences in male and female bodies. It's not at all clear to me what relevance brain-sex, should such a thing be proved to exist, would have on us. Our brains are so different as individuals anyway. Isn't categorising by sex where physical bodies are irrelevant just plain sexism?

I think many transgender people would agree with your comment that physical sex is still relevant in our interactions with the world... period poverty for example is not going anywhere and that is relevant for trans men as well as biological women.

Participation in sport is a challenging area as there are clear physical advantages for biological reasons for trans women. I’m not going to claim any expertise in this as I am not informed enough to do so but there is clearly a need for dialogue.

I’m not sure I know what you mean if categorising by anything other than physical sex is being sexist?

Can we acknowledge that neuroscience is a field where there is much to learn and that our understanding on how gender or gender incongruence makes us feel and behave is still a bit of an unknown but this doesn’t take away from what trans people feel and know?

PS. I’ve refreshed and regrouped and am back in the room! Apologies... the safeguarding/ Reddit criticisms really stung and reminded me of the hanging incident post cyber bullying.

Kudos to you OP for remaining open to all this. I don’t want you to feel attacked - you care so deeply and are clearly doing absolutely all you feel you can. If I may say, this has been one of the best threads on this topic because of your approach.

What keeps striking at me is a few pages back you said it would be good if your child accepted they were a butch lesbian as that would be a much easier path for you all although not at all easy or free from challenge. But they can’t - hence the trans route. The fundamental stumbling block is it seems to me their refusal to accept they are a woman. Just that simple statement. It’s been built up into something huge when in fact it’s just a fact like the weather. Its clearly become a huge stumbling block which is, ironically,
exacerbated by all the thinking and exploring they are doing plus the insistent rhetoric around this.

I know they intensely hate their female body but the more we give a route out of accepting reality the more that reality feels like the absurdity and our fantasy feels like the truth.

DD is currently going through a period of intense denial about something she is facing (not related to your issue although not uncommon in adolescents) and the strength of her denial is incredible to me. She’s so smart and thoughtful but on this she is in a parallel universe. I can’t get her back by argument or logic or reason or the emotional connection between us which, on all other topics is really good. All I can hope is that she’ll get there eventually when her mind makes the connection with her body (it’s an eating issue). Like you, I can’t be challenging her to think clearly every five minutes. But I also can’t endorse her staying where she is.

So hard.

@OldCrone

OP didn't ignore the recommendation; she pointed out that the polarisation and mud-slinging means she's wary of accepting anyone at face value when they say "this is unbiased".

She also seemed to be conflating the genuine concern of many women that children are being led to believe that their sex is a matter of choice with genuine transphobes who shout abuse at her child. I don't see what we're doing by pointing out the pitfalls inherent in the affirmation only approach as mud-slinging.

@OldCrone I think the point about the mud slinging that you do see when you dip your toe into what can feel like murky waters does make you wary as a parent to accept anything at face value. For what it’s worth I don’t think anyone on this thread has generally been mud slinging and the atmosphere has been overwhelming curious and questioning.

I can see and respect that some women are worried about perhaps the pace and direction that transgenderism is pacing and I truly believe there should always be a place for people to calmly and reasonably raise concerns. I suppose what makes me uncomfortable is that at the heart of this debate is a group of people that need help, support and validation now and that any arguments about policy and rights can sometimes detract from those need and actually make it harder to get help.

Teansgenderism is taking that should say... fat fingers on an iPad

Agree with everything you’ve just said OP apart from validation. Support and empathy yes. Validation no. And that’s not what the world offers us anyway so we’d best understand early on that that is not on the table.

@mollscroll

Kudos to you OP for remaining open to all this. I don’t want you to feel attacked - you care so deeply and are clearly doing absolutely all you feel you can. If I may say, this has been one of the best threads on this topic because of your approach.

What keeps striking at me is a few pages back you said it would be good if your child accepted they were a butch lesbian as that would be a much easier path for you all although not at all easy or free from challenge. But they can’t - hence the trans route. The fundamental stumbling block is it seems to me their refusal to accept they are a woman. Just that simple statement. It’s been built up into something huge when in fact it’s just a fact like the weather. Its clearly become a huge stumbling block which is, ironically,
exacerbated by all the thinking and exploring they are doing plus the insistent rhetoric around this.

I know they intensely hate their female body but the more we give a route out of accepting reality the more that reality feels like the absurdity and our fantasy feels like the truth.

DD is currently going through a period of intense denial about something she is facing (not related to your issue although not uncommon in adolescents) and the strength of her denial is incredible to me. She’s so smart and thoughtful but on this she is in a parallel universe. I can’t get her back by argument or logic or reason or the emotional connection between us which, on all other topics is really good. All I can hope is that she’ll get there eventually when her mind makes the connection with her body (it’s an eating issue). Like you, I can’t be challenging her to think clearly every five minutes. But I also can’t endorse her staying where she is.

So hard.

We’ve also had to deal with anorexia in DS who was hospitalised for a short time as a result, it is a brutal and cruel disease that defies all logic. I wouldn’t wish an eating issue on anyone

DS is also very scientific and logical, it was an utter mystery to me that he wouldn’t/couldn’t accept the data and evidence around his weight and health although rationally I know that is the disease and starvation talking. A very unmumsnetty hug to you!

Unfortunately anorexia and gender dysphoria are co-morbid so we’re are constantly on the look out for any signs of relapse.

@mollscroll

Agree with everything you’ve just said OP apart from validation. Support and empathy yes. Validation no. And that’s not what the world offers us anyway so we’d best understand early on that that is not on the table.

I guess validation that yes you do feel what you feel and no one is trying to say you can’t be experiencing those thoughts?

This for example is an interesting study: academic.oup.com/cercor/article-abstract/30/5/2755/5669983

It is impossible to make much from that abstract as not enough information is provided. However one thing it clearly states is their algorithms distinguish between men and transmen and women and transwomen. It does not make any claim that transgender individuals are the same as the sex they identify with. We have no information about whether they have controlled for sexual orientation or drugs such as puberty blockers. We know that blocking puberty prevents maturation of the brain and this study could simply be considering the lack of brain maturity caused by puberty blockers.