I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@Wonderrwall

Hi OP, I don't want to get into a debate as it can be very toxic, however I just wanted to say you are doing a wonderful job of supporting your son. I'm sure this will help his mental health as support is known to reduce suicide attempts in trans youth. The suicide stats you quoted are real and you seen very knowledgeable about trans issues in general. Unfortunately there are people and organisations out there who are essentially trans-deniers. Being trans is real, the suffering is real and the struggle to access care is real. Trans teens are less likely to finish education and are more likely to end up unemployed. Detransition rates are actually low, but that is denied by people who don't want to believe it is a real thing. I'm sorry you and your son are going through this but remember there lots of people who support you both and are wishing you all the best. I hope he gets the right treatment at the right time for him. I know you are a great parent and will support him throughout his journey, wherever that may take him.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate your kind words. It can be a very lonely path, all we can ever hope is that we are doing enough and that my son knows he is loved whoever he is and whatever path he ultimately walks down xx

I have read up on detransition rates and they are so far reassuringly low although I understand that if you are one of those that does detransition that you then have to live with permanent reminders of the treatment you have undergone.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

Some of the children I worked with who had autism used to bite their own hands as a way of managing their anxiety. It made them feel better and helped them to control their own emotions and many of them really really struggled to stop even when they understood why it was a dangerous behaviour. Most people don't bite their hands because it hurts and hurting themselves isn't comforting, but the ASD brain works differently and so 'standard' understanding doesn't always work. We could have said 'ok go ahead and bite your hands if you need to' on the understanding that a child allowed to bite their hands would feel calmer but also with the knowledge that in the long run they could cause very severe damage. Of course we didn't do that, because allowing a child to engage in a maladaptive behaviour that causes them damage isn't right, even if in the short term the outcome for that child (being calmer and less anxious) is good. We could have punished them and forced them to stop, but that would obviously not work either as it would only increase their anxiety and make the situation worse. So we worked with the child to get to the source of their anxiety and tried to find different ways, more effective ways to manage it. That involved actually getting to the root of the problem, not just looking at the outward situation or the behaviour.

I don't see gender dysphoria as being any different. IME it's very common for children with ASD to have a complicated relationship with their body - many have sensory problems, refuse to wear certain types or textures of clothes, won't eat certain foods because of the texture, will only wear their hair one way, can't stand wearing watches etc. Gender dysphoria seems to be me to a very obvious extension of that - discomfort with the reality of an adult body and what that means for them. Going along with the idea that they can be cured by changing the superficial appearance of their body strikes me as nothing short of lazy thinking - there's no attempt there to understand 'why does this child see gender as the centre of their difficulty?' - instead it's essentially of the equivalent of 'let them bite their hand, it makes them feel better.' It amounts to a refusal to really engage with the issue IMO, which is likely to be complicated - understanding the ASD point of view is a job and half sometimes.

This is exactly why we are pushing him to engage with the issue, he knows he has had sensory difficulties like many children with autism as well as struggling with emotional regulation.

The purpose of seeing a specialist is to do exactly that: why is (or is it) gender at the centre of your difficulties, is there something there that needs working on? If after all that he is still sure and he is old enough to consent to treatment then that will be his choice and we will support him going forward. I’m certainly not rushing him - urgently dealing with the distress yes - but allowing him time to explore his feelings.

Where are you getting those statistics op? I thought you said you were finding it really hard to find unbiased evidence?

Could the same not be argued for my son, that he knows he is male regardless of what the physical evidence says.

Without wanting to sound too harsh, this is just such a strange thing to say. If anyone said anything about themselves that was manifestly not true e.g. "I am actually a Native American", "I am actually 21 even though my birth certificate says I'm 50" then we would never just accept their testimony as truth. Or as revealing some kind of underlying reality. Why do we think this is the case with male and female? How are you defining male and female? Because the normal way we define male and female is through XX or XY chromosomes that manifest in sexed bodies.

but what about the right to marriage?
Someone else getting married in your church doesn't affect you. You don't have a right to say "those two will never last, stop the marriage" because it's none of your business. They aren't going to be married in your house, they are going to be married in THEIR house. A man who identifies as a woman is going to be in a rape crisis group with women who are afraid of men.

“ For me gender is my sense of self. For example, you may have a particular characteristic of your body that you identify with. Like green eyes or freckles. You don’t realise that your green eyes are there until suddenly you look in the mirror and have brown eyes. You are then confused. Gender dysphoria for me is like I identify with my penis, but when I look down it isn’t there. Like you may know that you are a woman due to your physical characteristics, I know I am a man due to my characteristics that arent there.”

That's fed to your child by someone on the internet, I'll guarantee 100%.

I have read up on detransition rates and they are so far reassuringly low
They are around 80%, unless you talk to Stonewall who have a vested interest in them being low.

@Campervan69

Absolutely agree.

t.co/KWEk6h0wUI?amp=1

"Swedish child psychiatrist, Sven Roman has compared the explosive growth in the number of cases of gender dysphoria to other psychiatric conditions, such as eating disorders and self-harm behaviour, that are known tospread with social contacts. He documents the process of discovery that the medical community went through to understand how to best treat these kinds of conditions. Over the past decade, he says research has proven that supportive psychotherapy can reduce or stop self-harm behaviour within 3 months."

I know many people who would bite of the hand of someone who can resolve or reduce the problems listed with three months of psychotherapy! That feels like the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

And given that you have a long wait anyway is it wise to keep drawing them back to the "gender" issue as though as it's at the centre of everything? You said it's much easier to get support for the other issues so maybe see how that pans out in the meantime?

@drspouse

but what about the right to marriage? Someone else getting married in your church doesn't affect you. You don't have a right to say "those two will never last, stop the marriage" because it's none of your business. They aren't going to be married in your house, they are going to be married in THEIR house. A man who identifies as a woman is going to be in a rape crisis group with women who are afraid of men.

“ For me gender is my sense of self. For example, you may have a particular characteristic of your body that you identify with. Like green eyes or freckles. You don’t realise that your green eyes are there until suddenly you look in the mirror and have brown eyes. You are then confused. Gender dysphoria for me is like I identify with my penis, but when I look down it isn’t there. Like you may know that you are a woman due to your physical characteristics, I know I am a man due to my characteristics that arent there.”

That's fed to your child by someone on the internet, I'll guarantee 100%.

I have read up on detransition rates and they are so far reassuringly low
They are around 80%, unless you talk to Stonewall who have a vested interest in them being low.

Indeed but trans women are at high risk of rape too and will be rightly fearful of men potentially.

Depends whether you define detransition rates as starting from social transition I.e. pre medical intervention or after. Once someone has had medical treatment the transition rates are low but much higher if you class anyone who decides to detransition from the point of starting to socially transition.

@RuffleCrow

And given that you have a long wait anyway is it wise to keep drawing them back to the "gender" issue as though as it's at the centre of everything? You said it's much easier to get support for the other issues so maybe see how that pans out in the meantime?

Which is effectively what we have done, nearly a year of CAMHS input but they have recommended addressing the gender stuff as it’s so significant and has become increasingly so over time. Although the social transition has helped we still need to dig deeper into the dysphoria and what could lie behind.

@RuffleCrow

Where are you getting those statistics op? I thought you said you were finding it really hard to find unbiased evidence?

Sorry which ones?

OP thanks for coming back and expanding the discussion so keenly.
Personally I don't doubt that a small percentage of people suffer badly from gender dysphoria and would be happier dressing and being "read" and addressed as the opposite sex. Most people would accept that 'trans is real' to some definition or other.

It gets complicated to unpick which people are these and which are the ones who would be better served by other treatment (or which are MRAs, but that's for another discussion!) and of course it would be great to try different options then skip 20 years into the future to check which has the best outcome but obviously that's not possible and everyone's trying to do the best they can.
Handwaving detransitioners away is not helpful and devalues their experiences.

You describe what seems like a very distressing time and I hope you and your family find peace.
There was one other suggestion I had, has your child shown any symptoms of OCD previously? One form of OCD can, I believe, coincide with a fixation on gender.

@DeaconBoo

OP thanks for coming back and expanding the discussion so keenly. Personally I don't doubt that a small percentage of people suffer badly from gender dysphoria and would be happier dressing and being "read" and addressed as the opposite sex. Most people would accept that 'trans is real' to some definition or other.

It gets complicated to unpick which people are these and which are the ones who would be better served by other treatment (or which are MRAs, but that's for another discussion!) and of course it would be great to try different options then skip 20 years into the future to check which has the best outcome but obviously that's not possible and everyone's trying to do the best they can.
Handwaving detransitioners away is not helpful and devalues their experiences.

You describe what seems like a very distressing time and I hope you and your family find peace.
There was one other suggestion I had, has your child shown any symptoms of OCD previously? One form of OCD can, I believe, coincide with a fixation on gender.

This is it, I’ve said time and again to my husband I wish there was a way of ascertaining which child will pass through this as a phase and identifying those whereby this is likely to be persistent!

I think detransitioners should be listened too as there experiences will be invaluable in perhaps providing an answer to the above? Their experiences are as real as someone who is happy having transitioned and arguably in a way more important as it could inform treatment and refine assessment maybe?

He’s had screening for ocd and he didn’t score highly on it, the next area to explore is that of trauma.

@TheDailyCarbuncle I think what you say about kids with autism managing their anxiety is really interesting. It seems so likely to me that my (trans) kid's feelings about her body and her way of coping (by identifying as male) are related to autism not some magical "gender identity". How this isn't the starting point for any therapy I do not know.

It is heartbreaking that the unbiased support and therapy that these kids need just isn't there.

@Fraida I read somewhere (possibly a detransitioner) that trans is something you DO not something you ARE. That really resonates for me.

My kid desperately wants me to agree she's a boy. I just can't. I can however acknowledge that for some people taking steps along the path of medical transition can help to alleviate the symptoms of dysphoria.

One other thing @Fraida I don't think you can say that detransition is rare. Truth is we don't know as no one keeps that data. And I do know there are hundreds of detansitioners online many carrying a lot of regret.

I'm a bit surprised that you say that detransition rates are "reassuringly low".

I guess you mean "most children don't go on to question their decision and can get comfortable with their new bodies" but I think the truth is closer to "most children have given up too much by then to go back".

I suppose my question as a parent would be - this is such a traumatic process to go through and has such profoundly negative effects on the physical body (sexual function, fertility) - is there any way that I can secure a way back for my child should they need it? That's why "reassuringly low" struck me.

I really appreciate your engagement OP. I can't imagine how hard this must all be and of course you would do anything at all to keep your child well. I realise that you are trying to pick a path through a minefield.

I know someone going through something very similar and I feel that she is entirely wrong in her approach and has constructed an entire belief system to support her choices - I understand why she made those choices. I just think she is very, very wrong. Her child is also a lesbian, autistic and also very physically awkward and very big for a girl which adds to her sense of being wrong in her body. What strikes me is how much she has become a passionate advocate for this cause which makes it even harder for her daughter to change tack.

You haven't done that - your posts are incredibly calm and thoughtful. I wish you all the very best.

I know I am a woman and I would still be a woman regardless , god forbid, I had any damage or removal of the body parts that mark me out as female. Could the same not be argued for my son, that he knows he is male regardless of what the physical evidence says.

Can you not see that these two things are not comparable? You are a woman, so any removal of body parts would make you no less female. Your child is also female. The 'missing' body parts aren't there because your child is not male. You seem to be coming very close to saying that your child is 'in the wrong body'.

I asked last night (I think it was after you said you were going to bed, so you probably missed my post as there were loads more there this morning), what does your child think 'being male' is? Your child doesn't know what it feels like to be male, because your child is female.

OP, can I ask more about your son feeling like the penis he identifies with is missing? I can't really make sense of this as different than every single teen (I think!) looking in the mirror and wishing whichever plastic pop star is de rigeur was looking back. We have made our children focus on their bodies (as a culture, not you specifically!) and then they see things they don't like. How is this different in real terms than me wanting to look like Demi Moore when I was a teenager?

What do you think a man and woman are as I think some of us can't even get off the starting block with that? For me it's just about your DNA and contribution to procreation. It's made more by society but that's not real so we can't 'change' it in a material sense, just in the social constructionist sense. I 100% do not want your son to be bullied for whatever choices he makes but I can't agree that he's a 'man' as that is just nonsensical in my sense making. He can do everything which more stereotyped people might see as male and I can't see a problem but that does not mean he is a man. He can change his body too but that also makes no difference and again takes us back to why are we so over-valuing the body as an expression of identity and can we really not see the impact of unethical marketing in that situation?

It's clear that you are giving this a lot of thought and are highly committed to your son. For the reasons above I can't agree with your stance but I think what your son needs now is the love and care which you are clearly giving. I hope he comes to feel happy in himself - a tricky task for all adolescents really.

Indeed but trans women are at high risk of rape too and will be rightly fearful of men potentially
Can you show me where transwomen are more at risk of rape than other men (with comparable occupations - e.g. transwomen who are prostitutes compared to rent boys)?
If a transwoman is raped they should have specialist services not the ones for women.

Indeed but trans women are at high risk of rape too and will be rightly fearful of men potentially

Does their fear override the rights of natal women and girls to have access to same sex support services after being raped?

I've just seen in another place someone say that gender is a special interest for lots of autistic people. As I said earlier in the thread, all the trans people that I know are autistic. Two are medically transitioning.

@bitheby That's quite interesting you've experienced that! I've known probably 3-5 transgender people on a personal level, but they were all neurotypical (albeit most had some MH issues but maybe that connects to the transgender thing overall), speaking as a young autistic woman. I'm not sure I'd see gender as a special interest though, really.

I'm autistic too. It was something that someone said in an Facebook group for autistic people. I don't know. It's not for me but I can certainly relate to being totally single minded and obsessed by something to the exclusion of all else.

@bitheby Definitely me too, and I guess there is a kind of "culture" around LGBT amongst some young people. But in the same instance, I don't think I would permanently alter my body for a special interest (unless maybe it was tattoos!). Obviously just my personal experience though, I would be interested to hear in any testimony from someone with autism who feels it is their special interest.

Do you think if you found some butch lesbian role models your child might feel better in the self?

I'm still curious if you literally believe your female child is male? And if so, how you made your brain accept something that goes against the evidence of your own eyes?

And where you have found robust studies suggesting trans is diagnosable on brain scans ?

I've been in your situation and never found a single piece of high quality research supporting the assertion that a transboy like your child has a 'male' brain in a 'wrong' female body.

Do you worry about the implications of sterilizing same sex oriented individuals? I do. It sounds like eugenics to me.